Toolmaster 1D Variable Drive and Quill Feed Questions
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  1. #1
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    Default Toolmaster 1D Variable Drive and Quill Feed Questions

    I finally got tired of tripping over the Cinel 202-12 that I've had holding down a corner of the shop for too long and decided to try and get it running - I posted some questions 5 years ago but time flies.

    when I tried to power this up 5 years ago it made horrible noise and the driven pulley seemed to be low on the shaft. I bought the machine out of a school, not under power. The drive belt appears new. On tearing into it today I'm thinking someone did a belt replacement and screwed it up more than fixed it.

    Pulled the motor housing / drive off the machine, pictures below. Here are my questions - figured I would ask before I do something stupid and break something.

    Does anyone have any tricks for removing the spring on the motor side? I'm assuming I have to work the belt off - which should be a lot of fun. Then put a bit of compression on the spring so as to remove the snap ring, release pressure and pull things apart. Anyone have any wisdom on this?

    Likewise, anything to watch out for when removing the pulley assembly that is on the quill side? You will note there is one extra piece that was between the bottom pulley sheave and the motor housing base - it was captured by the drawbar but just floating. I'm suspicious that it is the retainer - part 85B in the parts list - and whoever had it apart put the whole thing back together incorrectly. As one bolt was missing and a large internal tooth lock washer was also floating around in the housing I'm figuring it was not the best person working on it. To top it off there was no woodruff key to drive the quill. Keyway in the number 98B helical gear was full of crud - looks like the key got lost at assembly time.

    The quill power feed does not appear to engage, the handwheel just spins. I think at one point on here I found a post by someone who had repaired the same problem, what amounted to a shear pin in the mechanism. But now I can't find that thread. The power feed box will also not hold oil and I think that was covered in the same thread.

    I have not had this thing running - but, since I have it this far apart would you think I should open up the back gear cavity and check things out, and re-lube? Machine is a 1966 and in pretty good shape overall. As I said, came out of a school. It's been banged some but not really worn.

    Thanks for any advice you might have on attacking this. I've searched and not a lot out there on actually tearing into these variable speed drives.

    Dale

    head-1.jpgpulleys-1.jpgpulleys-2.jpgmanual-page.jpg

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    The snap ring for the motor spring was a two man job, same for a Bridgeport. I had a large pair of locking snap ring pliers. These I gave to a helper and with two hands on the retainer I applied pressure till the snap ring was free.
    I recall putting seals in it for the same leaky feed box problem.
    Had the little slotter and all those seals were bad too. Might have been Garlock seals. They look a different than
    CRC seals.
    I think 85-B is there to ride on top of the bearing. Check the bearing for damage.
    I put in new quill bearings, the old ones were toasted.
    v-sheave-assembly-dwg.jpg
    Those Woodruff keys tend to fall out. Thick grease helps.
    Put a new keyway for the drive sheave 180 out. Might of made a new 73-B floating sheave
    cause the bore was buggerd from the key when it spun. 15 years ago.....
    John

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    John -

    Thanks for the input.

    Dale

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    Hey Dale,
    The machine I worked on had been 'worked on' by somebody else. The variable speed changer was always floating a bit. Seemed like a spacer was missing.
    That mill had the motor on the right side of the knee. The seal was bad and oil was leaking out the motor housing. Easy fix with a new seal.
    John

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    John -

    Just for your (and anyone else interested) amusement I'll give an update.

    Got it mostly apart today, only the motor pulley assembly still to do. So far have found the top bearing on the driven pulley seized up - that was most likely the noise I heard when I had it on for all of 2 or 3 seconds. Shaft shows some abuse but I'm thinking with luck it will clean up enough to accept the new bearing, may have to locktite it in. Bottom bearing seems OK but as I have to replace the top one might as well get both. Had real fun getting the belt off as is was not turned off at the correct position, but got there. Some meat head snapped the brass pin that is the draw bar lock stop, that will be easy enough to fix. When I went to take the motor bolts out three of them were not even hand tight.

    Here is the really questionable part. Someone put two flat head machine screws in the top cover so they would be in the top bearing cavity. For the life of me I can't imagine why. Spacing wise if they were a bit longer they would run into the top bearing seal. The top bearing does not appear to have divots in the seal from them, but who knows. I'll post a couple pictures just for laughs.

    No parts missing and from the size of that part that was around the draw bar - starting to really question why and where that one came from. So far all parts match the manual - I just have extra ones added.

    I'm sure I'll have more questions when I pull the next level down, the back gears. Which will lead to the power downfeed gearbox.

    Dale
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails top-bearing-drive-pulley.jpg   top-1.jpg  

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    Hey Dale, you are eligible for the Sleuth Merit Badge (Sherlock cap and magnifying glass) for teasing this mill back to life
    The downfeed gearbox ran dry and it was leaking back to the quill. Replaced the seal, done.
    Watch for painted over set screws and there likely is two. Typical Cincinnati plants a second on top to dog the first.
    Watched the day foreman and a ham handed machinist beat on the quill casting trying to drive out ........something.
    Busted out a chunk of casting because they did not see the set screw. Then they called me over to fix it and both of them disappeared.
    Rare was the need for a hammer working on a Cincinnati Machine. The design elements carry over from one machine type to another. They were always nice to work on.
    Thinking about the back gears. If they don't trouble you let that dog sleep. I worked on a lot of stuff in a production shop and sometimes had to limit the scope of work.
    John

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    John -

    Have to say I've been impressed on how this thing is designed and put together. I'm a retired mechanical engineer who had a somewhat different career (not classical mechanical design) - but I've been turning wrenches since I was about 13. First time I've ever been into a real machine tool, although I've gone through decent (Oliver, etc.) wood working machines. This machine is a 1966 - same year I graduated high school. My good friend who is a retired chip designer (as in computer chips) stopped by yesterday to watch the fun for a while. He and I have worked on cars since the 60s and were both impressed on just how heavy and well designed this thing is.

    Funny you should mention the double set screw - somewhere I've read that on here previously and even commented to Jim yesterday when I was removing one the need to be careful of that. Once I find the dog point set screw I figure I'm there. Agree on the hammer - small brass on to tap a bit maybe. Amazing the 'professional' idiots on things like You-tube - I did a bit of looking at Bridgeport head tear down variable speed just to study a bit. The one moron who is a 'machine rebuilder' in an obviously machine dealer shop was using the big hammer and had the machine table on the bench, just throwing tools on it. That's when I stop watching - better to study the parts diagram and go slow and easy.

    Good ice turning to snow here today so shop time - I'll try not to break anything and see what questions I can come up with by nightfall.

    Thanks again for the advice.

    Dale

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    Default Quill Feed Gear Box

    I got tied up back in February. Then the virus hit and our two grandkids were with us for 45 days - easier for us to have them with their parents work situations. But they went home last Wednesday. Quite a bit of shop time, but working with them on all kinds of projects. Was a quick and fun 6 weeks. So today I tore into it again.

    Got the gear box off. It was leaking oil all over the place. From the parts diagram I know there is a seal on the shaft coming out the front, so I will get to that. Anyone have experience with sealing the gearbox housing to the side of the quill casting? As you can see in the picture the last person(s) in there seemed to use permatex - but everything leaked out anyway. It appears to me that either this thing was taken apart and thrown back together without cleaning or the sealant was not needed. Started life as two scraped surfaces - I'm open to advice or experience on this one. The cluster gear has one part where the tooth wear is about 50% thickness. I don't even want to think about finding a new one (and don't have the capability to make one) so will probably leave as is.

    John advised letting sleeping dogs lie on the back gears. Quite a bit of grease in the inside of this. Without opening up the back gear housing I'm guessing it came from there. Since I have it this far apart - and it is a total pain to tear down - any advice on lubrication of any of this? I'm open to ideas.

    Thanks.

    Dale

    spindle-gearbox-2.jpgspindle-gearbox-1.jpg

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    Hey Dale,
    Alcohol will remove the old Permatex - if that is what it is.
    Sealing the two faces, gear box to the column is a choice between using Permatex #2 - non hardening or make a gasket.
    Believe it was the Permatex I used. Properly applied to a prepped surface, Acetone wipe down, it never failed. Although I made a lot of gaskets and had material 0.015" thick my reasoning for not using a gasket was probably concern about creating displacement between the two crown gears, gear box to down feed shaft.
    If your choice is to use a gasket I used the Permatex spray for engine cylinder heads. Short can red spray and hit both sides of the gasket and let it dry to a tac. A good check is to do a 'dry' assembly and check for binding/tightness between the down feed handle and the gear box. Add some shim stock, snug and re-check. If the binding is gone then the gasket thickness was engineered into the design.
    I thought there was a seal behind the gearbox crown gear and that was the source of leak for the mill I worked on.
    If you open up the cavity for the back gears likely there is a deposit of clean grease. Just re-coat the gear face with it and call it done.
    Look around the casting in the cutting plane for the bull gear. Look for a zerk or a plug. Also look at the Lube Diagram Plate that is on the machine. That will identify a lube point if it exists.
    My reaction when seeing the "worn gear" likely was the same as yours. Did you see any fines or debris in the gear cavity? I think probably not.
    The gear was possibly made this way for easier shifting ...... on the fly. If you have the manual check this section for gear change info.
    I grabbed the pics and gave them a tweak.
    spindle-gearbox-2.jpgspindle-gearbox-1.jpg
    Regards, John

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    John -

    Thanks - and thanks for rotating the pictures. I did not notice that until I posted and was too lazy to go back in. I did not try and clean any of the old sealant yesterday - was end of the day and wife and I went for a walk since it was 76 and sunny! My first take was to go with Permatex on reassemble but wanted to see what you and perhaps others had for advice. Gearbox had only some very very fine particles in bottom - about what I would expect for a 50+ year old assembly that I'm guessing was apart just once. By crown gear I'm assuming you are talking about the one at top where the shaft goes up to the fiber gear driven off the bull gear?

    I'll check out your other comments and take some more pictures later today.

    Thanks again.

    Dale

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    Quote Originally Posted by duckfarmer27 View Post
    By crown gear I'm assuming you are talking about the one at top where the shaft goes up to the fiber gear driven off the bull gear?
    First pic lower right that drives the rack/down feed for the quill rack and pinion.
    Been about fifteen years since I did the repair. Pretty sure there is a seal that hardened up and bled the oil out of the gear box. Might be two on the shaft just below the worm.
    YVW on the pic-flip. Made the first one 'brighter' and tweaked it a bit sharper.
    Regards, John

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    John -

    Took me longer than I thought but finally got everything in the gear box and spindle housing torn down - maybe - but I'm open to some advice. Pictures below. I followed the procedure in the manual to pull things apart.

    I should have taken a picture of the part diagrams in the manual but I forgot and am too lazy to go back out to the shop.

    In spinning the bevel gear that supplies the input to the gearbox - driven by the phenolic/fiber gear - the bearings felt like they had gravel in them. So I pulled that sub assembly out and tore it down. Will get two new bearings for that location. The O ring that seals that sub assembly at the top of the box looks a little worse for wear, but then this thing was built when I was a senior in high school. I followed the manual to get the front cover off and pulled the two shafts and opened it up. Popped the seal out - it is hard and dry with no numbers but the bore and shaft measure .998 and .500 so it is a common part. First question - since I have it down this far what is the advice on pulling it all the way apart to replace all the O rings. Things don't LOOK like they have been leaking, but then this machine has been sitting for almost 10 years. I'd hate to put it all back together and then have, for example, the shaft that sets the down feed speed or the up/down selector start leaking. The front seal has definitely been leaking over time.

    when I got this oil was definitely leaking down the spindle from the gear box. The spindle return spring was not adjusted right so I took that side down. Biggest problem was the crown gear on the spindle shaft had sheared the tension pin that connects the gear to the shaft. I got one half out no problem. The other side fought badly - finally a carbide burr and Dremel got it out in pieces. That seal was very brittle and popped apart. I did manage to read the number VG 64109 on it, which matches what others have posted previously. So now I at least know why nothing concerning the gear box worked. Sheared pin and seals that did not seal.

    So I guess the only question prior to going to get parts is do I tear things down the rest of the way before cleaning and replace the rest of the O rings and gaskets or let the dogs that are left still sleeping continue their slumber?

    Thanks.

    Dale
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails gb-1.jpg   spindle-shaft.jpg   gb-2.jpg   gb-internal-parts.jpg  

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    Hey Dale, good progress.
    Might have been original Victor Seals:
    cincinnati toolmaster 1d broken
    The photos are pretty good but you cannot see them it is because of Photobuckets grabby hands.
    CRC - SKF should carry the seals. Will need O.D. Shaft diameter and width. Nitrile is a very seal good lip materiel.
    Ex: Product Datasheet for 4984
    Buy O Rings, Seals, Custom Molded Rubber, Engineered Plastic :: All Seals
    Apply a thin coat of grease to the O-ring and the edge of the bore it will enter at time of assembly.
    Layman's terms, call the "tension pin" a roll pin.
    The outside diameter of the new seal will be around 0.004 larger than the bore. Watch the seal orientation at installation. Single lip seals are directional.
    Good on you for finding the bad seals. The other O-rings? Can't say as it depends on the location and if the part will be immersed.
    O-ring installation usually entails sliding over a sharp machined edge that might cut. That's the risk and do you want to broaden the scope of the job?
    Thought that o.d. of the gear was a little beat up. Ow, nothing beats a really good set of pin punches.
    Looking Good
    John

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    John -
    I'm guessing both these seals were original just based on how brittle they are. Finding them should not be a problem - I just have to go 20 miles either west or south to get to a bearing house. I have to get bearings for the Reeves Drive as well - one of those was seized.

    Thanks for reminding me on things - but I have to laugh. Roll, tension, spring - sometimes we get separated with our 'common' language in this country. I'm a retired engineer - worked for IBM/Lockheed (where I worked got sold twice during my career) and spent a lot of years as an engineering manager in the printed wiring product shop. Terminology there was interesting. Our facility build all DOD stuff - aircraft, shipboard, space but we also for quite a while were building commercial product, sort of like an internal company sub contractor. IBM had all its own terminology in the board business which we had to translate as we had our feet in two different worlds. A 'detail' was either one or two copper planes, depending on who you were talking to. As my one friend in my other life (Army) used to say 'words are weapons, use them carefully'.

    That gear is a little beat up - some of it by me trying to be cute and 'maybe this will work'. When the pin had the shear failure it got bent or burred on the shaft/gear interface on the one side. This machine came out of the Buffalo school system. So although it does not appear to have a ton of hours on it there were definitely some crashes and ham handed operators along the way. This thing has been apart once before at least. And whoever was working on it was maybe not the most knowledgeable or wanting to learn. I mentioned the Reeves Drive - this came with a new belt on it which someone must have gone to the trouble to install but the shaft had a seized bearing. Must be they just gave up at that point. The two seconds I had it on there was obviously something wrong. Guess it must have been a parts swapper and not one who wanted to diagnose what the real problem was.

    The stupid engineer part of me is probably going to lead me to tear it down the rest of the way just to satisfy myself. I think this is one of those places where there is not a right or wrong, just a couple different ways to look at it. With my usual luck I would put it all back together and the bottom O ring would start leaking. But a T-10 four speed would be easier - at least big enough to work on.

    Dale

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    Figure I would update and show a couple pictures in case anyone else is looking for information some day.

    Got it all cleaned up and started reassembly. I removed everything except the one pin and link in the first picture. I'm glad I did. Some of the O rings were not looking great and one of the roll pins was half way to failure - probably happened at the same time the one on the crown gear mounted on the spindle shaft was sheared. The other pictures show the first series of reassembly.

    I'm no machine expert but will make a couple of observations that some will probably say 'everyone knows that'. The Cincinnati manual covers disassembly but not assembly. Almost all bushings are held in place with dog point set screws to keep them located so the end of the bushing will handle thrust bearing duty. In one case the manual says to 'tap the shaft backwards in order to remove the bevel gear above' - and they have you take out the set screw(s) (Cincinnati almost always uses a second set screw for a lock it seems). On assembly you have to remember to check the bushings for hole alignment so the dog point can do its job. This box has been apart before - there were witness marks on some of the gears by the roll pin holes. And the one bushing (the one for the shaft holding the gearbox output crown gear) was not set back in place quite right, as a result the worm driving the gear was definitely driving it a bit off center from the wear pattern. Not a huge issue but it is aligned better now. I decided to leave the back cover off for now as it makes no difference really and it might be handy to get in that way. Its coming along pretty good and although fiddly a good job with the cruddy weather we have been having.

    Dale
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails gb-assemble-3a.jpg   gb-assemble-4a.jpg   gb-assemble-5.jpg   gb-assemble-6.jpg  

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    Finally got the gear box all back together and installed on the machine.

    Pictures below should be self explanatory, show everything with the work completed except for the covers and what it looks like on the mill. I put new bearings on the power input shaft. Also took out the down feed spline shaft - tore the right side down. Glad I did as there were parts missing - the ball that hits the detent and keeps the down feed handle up, two brass shoes to lock movement, etc. I never knew how the thing was supposed to work, but after tearing it apart and finding the missing parts it was obvious. Actually had the right size ball in my collection as well as the brass.

    Prior to putting the covers on I did a dry run on the bench making sure everything worked correctly. Then I mounted it up to the mill to make sure it all coupled up and worked there. I did not want to have the Permatex all over the mating surfaces and then find out there was a problem. All was fine so I buttoned it up and got it installed this afternoon when it started raining.

    Just for reference in the future. I ended up with a TCM (Dichtomatik) seal for the hand wheel, P/N 05092TB-H-BX. For the spline shaft seal in the spindle head shown in the picture it was an SKF 6767. same as someone else mentioned in another thread. I also replaced all the O rings.

    Now to start reassembly of the head and Reeves drive. Hopefully progress and no more questions.

    And I wish I knew how to rotate the pictures so they were oriented correctly. They are OK on my PC but rotate when uploaded and I can't find the magic sauce to fix it!

    Dale
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails gb-assemble-11.jpg   gb-assemble-12.jpg   gb-assemble-13.jpg   gb-assemble-14.jpg  

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    If I had a magic sauce it would be chocolate
    Instead Windows Picture and Fax viewer or Microsoft Photo Editor are the are the flavors that came with Win-xp and Microsoft Office.
    Here is the pic-flip:
    gb-assemble-11.jpggb-assemble-12.jpggb-assemble-13.jpggb-assemble-14.jpg
    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhruska View Post
    If I had a magic sauce it would be chocolate John
    John -

    Thanks. I spent about 7 years of my life as a computer programmer - back in the days of 370 assembler and B-52 G/H computers (1979 version, not the new ones) before I managed to escape. Guess I will have to break down and play with things. IPhone picture into Windows system...... These 'open architecture' and such are anything but. I actually tried pre-flipping them but that did not work.

    I really want to stick to working on the mill, not playing with pictures on the PC.

    Dale

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    Quote Originally Posted by duckfarmer27 View Post
    John -

    Thanks. I spent about 7 years of my life as a computer programmer - back in the days of 370 assembler and B-52 G/H computers

    I really want to stick to working on the mill, not playing with pictures on the PC.

    Dale
    Ha! Then you know what WYSIWYG means

    1974 in the basement of the EE building at Purdue, aka punchcard hell.
    There was a pair of CDC 6500's (Control Data) and I spent hours there feeding the beast punch cards for a class in Fortran.
    Late at night some poor soul dropped a huge stack of cards. Sure hope he numbered them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhruska View Post
    Ha! Then you know what WYSIWYG means

    1974 in the basement of the EE building at Purdue, aka punchcard hell.
    There was a pair of CDC 6500's (Control Data) and I spent hours there feeding the beast punch cards for a class in Fortran.
    Late at night some poor soul dropped a huge stack of cards. Sure hope he numbered them.
    John -

    Remember that exactly. Fall 1966 freshman course - can't remember the name, all engineers had to take, FORTRAN. IBM 1400 series punch card system (can't remember exact model) where you loaded the compiler and link editor decks prior to the program, output on punch cards, etc. My roommate junior year had a job in the computer center running it. As a result I never got any service but had to run my own routines.

    1974 coming out of the Army I hired on with IBM. Between accepting the job and showing up the job and department were eliminated. So when I showed up they decided to make me a programmer - took me 7 years and 2 location transfers for this mechanical engineer to get out of that racket. Good experience but not my cup of tea, given a choice. But along the way you develop an attitude that you can't break the things - just crash them and start over. Especially when doing channel attach of new gear on main frames. And the avionics work was a lot more interesting. Don't miss it at all!

    Dale


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