Toolmaster 1D Variable Drive and Quill Feed Questions - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    "Sure hope he numbered them."

    Diagonal line in red marker across the edge. If it's a huge stack, multiple lines in different colors.

    Baker Systems @OSU, Blizzard of '77.

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  3. #22
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    Default More Progress

    Got enough done that I will post some new pictures and have a question.

    After letting the Permatex #2 set for 2 days I filled the gear box last Wednesday. So far so good and no leaks on the gear box side and the level in the sight glass is holding steady. Just hope the quill seal stays good!

    First two pictures are reassembly of the motor variable pulley. Since I'm a one man band and 70 I can't use two hands and feet to defeat the spring. Rigged up a little C clamp driven 'press' to hold the spring down while I put the snap ring on. Second picture you can see just a hint of grease coming out the weep hole.

    For whatever reason the zerk fitting was missing. It has 3/8-24 threads which was impossible to find here in the sticks. Good thing McMaster delivers.

    I'll bump to next post as have more pictures. And I know the pictures are sideways - have to figure out how to defeat the iphone but too tired to fight it tonight!

    Dale
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails motor-pulley-assemble-1.jpg   motor-pulley-assemble-2.jpg  

  4. #23
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    Default What Grease To Use

    These are pictures of the back gear housing and the top of the spindle housing.

    You can see the top of the gearbox and the shaft where the phenolic gear is installed. You can also see the remnants of grease in the top of the spindle housing. Cincinnati does not list, neither on the machine lube plate nor in the manual, what grease to use on these gears. Looks like old wheel bearing grease in color but does not feel the same. I'm thinking to just use some #2 lithium as is called out for (and what I used) on the motor pulley. I think more a case of it should just have some lube in there is more important than something exotic.

    Decided to not open up the back gear assembly. Everything works as it should and shifts OK - going to let this sleeping dog lie. Decided that John is definitely right on this one! Actually, with what I have now been through on this getting to this level on the mill is not that bad. Still need to clean out the rest of the top side of this level of the assembly. Previous grease monkeys seem to have put way too much into the motor pulley or something - it's a mess. But it cleans up.

    Thanks for any ideas on the grease.

    Dale
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails top-assemble-1.jpg   top-assemble-2.jpg   top-assemble-3.jpg   top-assemble-4.jpg  

  5. #24
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    Good work getting the snap ring installed. Looked overkill but better than a smack in the teeth.

    I played the same guessing game with grease and settled on Mobil synthetic in the red flavor. As a synthetic it
    will not interact with other emulsifiers such as paraffin, soap, or esters. Wheel bearing grease may be too thick, generate
    heat. The old type that looked hairy would be thick too. Milwaukee has a nice grease for the bevel gears in the angle grinders.
    If there is no brass-bronze present (bearing) an EP grease might be okay. That dark brown grease looks like a heavy motor
    bearing grease. The lighter bearing grease, light brown in color, sometimes oil will separate from the emulsifier depending on the brand.
    Best guess is use what you have on hand. Not sold on the lithium grease for the gears. Look up the part number on line?
    John

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  7. #25
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    Angry Some Peiple Should Not Be Allowed to Repair Machines

    Quote Originally Posted by jhruska View Post
    Hey
    Watched the day foreman and a ham handed machinist beat on the quill casting trying to drive out ........something.
    Busted out a chunk of casting because they did not see the set screw. Then they called me over to fix it and both of them disappeared.
    John -

    I have to ask - did those two ever do work for the Buffalo, NY school system? If not it might have been a relative.

    I started tearing this down in January and then got a bit side tracked helping the two grandkids with science fair projects. Then the virus lockdown hit and they spent 45 days with us. Guess my memory is not what it used to be. Light bulb went off last night. Way back in post #5 are two pictures of the top bearing for the spindle shaft side when I was disassembling back the first week of February. The top bearing's inner race is pressed on the shaft of the bottom variable pulley while the outer is captured in the top housing. You will note in that picture that the bearing was put in from the top side of the top housing. It is supposed to be put in from the bottom. So that whole assembly was more than .250 high and I'm guessing the loading on the retaining ring was backwards. That is the bearing that was seized. I don't know if it was due to those two mysterious screws that they (whoever they are) put in or what. They might have been stupid enough to try to clamp the 'loose' bearing. Can't make this stuff up. The manual page below has the part in question circled.

    Maybe the setup to hold down the spring for pulley reassembly was a little overkill, but have mercy on the old guy. Just trying to do it easy on me!

    Did some grease research today. Looked up what you recommended - if I have the right stuff, the red synthetic Mobil bearing grease it turns out that it has a lithium thickiner as does the dino stuff. I've had good luck calling the Mobil technical help line and today was no exception. After discussing with their engineer his take was that #2 XHP 222 would be fine. That is just a #2 bearing and chasis grease. So when I get time to pop it together I'll just use the equivalent I've got on the shelf. With the loading on those gears I imagine most anything would be OK, but bear grease might smell a bit.

    Now with great weather I have too much outside work to catch up on. But will try to pop this together the next few days. Just hope that this thing works when it finally goes back together.

    Thanks for the help. Will probably need more when I get to the bottom end.

    Dale
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails manual-page_li-rotate.jpg  

  8. #26
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    Not from Buffalo, just a couple of mopes from NW Indiana

    A bear? What about the smell? The bear won't mind.
    The screws may have been factory. Some parts were specials for the other models and this mill got something off the shelf.
    Puzzled about the bearing #78B. With that locating ring and outside diameter it can only go in from the bottom.

    Anyway, here is a collage of the assembly drawing and the parts.
    sub-assembly-vari-speed.jpg
    John

  9. #27
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    Default Success and the Next Question

    Rain early this morning so I declared it too wet to work outside and worked on the mill.

    Got it all back together. I did it the unorthodox way, but it worked. Put the top housing, minus the motor, on. Then wedged the motor pulley open, placed it down in the hole at a slant with about a half inch board propping the front. Managed to work the belt on. I have one of those 14 inch or whatever high small platforms for painting/taping - worked perfect as staging. Could not do the upside down trick on this with the table off, judged it too iffy of damaging something. And I'm not even sure there is enough room with the size of this knee.

    From searching on here in other threads when the switch is turned so the F is at top (the switch is counter-intuitive to me, turning it left for normal rotation) the spindle rotates to make a normal right hand drill workable. Bumped the switch a couple times to let the belt work into position. Ran fine, speed change worked OK. When in high range the pulleys are definitely noisier than when in low with the back gears in use. But various threads have commented that this model is not a real quiet one. The downfeed/upfeed gear box works fine. So I'm pleased with it for now. I do have to finish up a couple things. The fan/cover for the motor needs a bit of dent removal. Have to make a new pin to keep the drawbar locked in place (how they snapped the old one in half, who knows), put that cover on.

    Here's the question - should have shot a picture. I've run through the manual but no luck. I have had the table off to move the mill to where it sits now. Figured leave that off until after the top fixed so I could make sure all the oli distribution under the table is working. When I push the master power button the knee motor starts up, spinning the shaft that drives the table. But none of the saddle or knee movements work at all. Oil a bit low but still in sight glass. Running through old threads I see some reference to having to pull out the stop switch to enable power to the feeds. Will try that in the morning, maybe that is it. Otherwise will have to start looking for solenoid issue which was the one other possibility I came up with.

    Am I correct that the table shaft is always turning with power on? Kind of makes sense, manual does not say - and I know next to nothing about this machine!

    No pictures - I shot some video but can't upload that and did not think to do a couple pics. Will get some pictures tomorrow.

    Dale

  10. #28
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    Got the odds and ends finished on the head today.

    Pondered the situation, reviewed the documentation I have and searched through this forum as well as Vintage Machines for documentation. When the main power is applied the drive for the table fires up by way of the motor in the knee. If the controls for either knee or saddle are activated the table drive stops, as it should, but nothing else happens. The old manuals I have that I picked up various places are for older 2 MI machines, which I believe this bottom end was sourced from. From my reading Cincinnati went to having hydraulics and that is what I have. Any advice or idea of tracking down any documentation? I do have a correct Cinel 202-12 Operators Manual but nothing for maintenance or control wiring.

    Thanks.

    Dale
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails saddle-1.jpg   saddle-2.jpg  

  11. #29
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    The Toolmaster I worked on had the same Vari-speed as yours. Big table and the motor on the knee. All feeds could be engaged at the same time and I used that feature with x and y engaged to cut a 45 degree angle. Pulled the motor off cause oil in the knee was leaking past the seal and out the end of the motor.
    Service manual-Parts list is 6J-DK for the No.1 Toolmaster with Serial Number that begins with 6J
    1A 1B 1C Model LO
    1D Model LA
    1E Model LR
    This might be older than the mill you have.
    Got this as a pdf off the internet.
    Drawing shows a hand pump oiler on the upper left side of knee.
    Flow control (drip oiling) via two manifolds (junction blocks for oil lines) located in the knee and saddle.
    Expect you will find Biljur oil metering fittings on the manifold. If oil supply flow is in doubt loosen the source-supply fitting and observe oil flow.
    If no flow check flow at pump.
    If good loosen/remove coupling from meter unit and look for oil drip from end of unit. If no oil present assume meter unit may be plugged.
    untitled1.jpguntitled3.jpg
    Looks like there is a backlash control knob on the front of the saddle.This can be turned CW or CCW and is a take-up for lost motion within the table feed mechanism. The plate should be stamped with directions for use although it looks like the painted lettering is long gone.
    John

  12. #30
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    John -

    50 years ago I had a friend who used to say 'sure is dumb out today' at times. For me it sure has been dumb out the past few days. I have - I think - run a mill exactly 1 time in my life. So I am quite ignorant. I did read the operators manual for my machine but not carefully enough to pick up one fact - which was not exactly explicitly stated. For the feeds to work the spindle has to be running! That makes perfect sense - if the spindle stops the feeds better stop - but I was trying to get things to move without powering up the spindle. Step one it main power, which starts the motor in the knee. Then turn on the spindle drive on the head. In searching through old threads there was one where Gary E brought up that fact and it hit me between the eyes. That was very late last night and I almost went back out to the shop. But today tried that and all the feeds, including rapids, work just fine on the saddle and knee. Feeds seem to adjust per the dial but I did not actually try to time/measure. So as the programmers used to say 'no problem found'. Just ignorance/cockpit error on my part.

    But still have the oil issue - will continue that in next post. The operators manual I have for the machine - a Cinel 202-12 - is copyright 1965 and appears to match my 1966 machine just fine. I have a couple older (no date I can find) 2 MI manuals (operator and service). They sort of match the knee/saddle/table but not exactly. In reading through a few dozen old posts and looking at images on line I have come to the conclusion that my best estimate is that my machine has the knee/saddle/table from a Cinel 60 grafted onto the column from a Toolmaster. I am going to attach some good pictures I found on Ebay of a Cinel 60 DH. The Cinel 60 was the successor to the 2 MI as a horizontal mill. The DH version added the Toolmaster IOS vertical head to it. The knee/saddle/table on this machine is identical to mine, even to having the 'snap-set' readouts instead of dial readouts - the first digital if you will, which were mechanical counters built by Veeder Root.

    All the above is based on what I have read. In older posts Gary E and Tray Top Johnny both chimed in on a lot of Cincinnati history/data and had lots of experience, I believe Gary worked for Cincinnati. But don't take the above as hard facts - it is just the best distillation of what I have found out as I am trying to research my machine.

    Here are pictures of the Cinel 60 DH on Ebay - nicer to look at a fresh paint job. The 'bottom end' is very close - and 4 years newer - to my Cinel 202-12, Serial 12J2V5S-7.

    Dale
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ebay-cinel-60-dh-1.jpg   ebay-cinel-60-dh-2.jpg   ebay-cinel-60-dh-3.jpg   ebay-cinel-60-dh-4.jpg  

  13. #31
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jhruska View Post
    This might be older than the mill you have.
    Got this as a pdf off the internet.
    Drawing shows a hand pump oiler on the upper left side of knee.
    Flow control (drip oiling) via two manifolds (junction blocks for oil lines) located in the knee and saddle.
    Expect you will find Biljur oil metering fittings on the manifold. If oil supply flow is in doubt loosen the source-supply fitting and observe oil flow.
    If no flow check flow at pump.
    If good loosen/remove coupling from meter unit and look for oil drip from end of unit. If no oil present assume meter unit may be plugged.
    Looks like there is a backlash control knob on the front of the saddle.This can be turned CW or CCW and is a take-up for lost motion within the table feed mechanism. The plate should be stamped with directions for use although it looks like the painted lettering is long gone.
    John
    John -

    Now to continue on. The older 2 MI manual I have has the same hand pump oiler you mention. My machine is not manual, seems to be automatic using the same oil as the hydraulic system for lubrication of the sliding ways, etc. Looking at the pictures below of my machine - and the table is still off.

    First picture is the manifold, as you thought. I'm guessing those are all the Bijur metering fittings except for the top left one, which is the pressure line input from the oil pump. Next are two shots of the side of the knee, closeup of the oil pump and in the next picture you can see the hose running up to the saddle. That connects to the copper line that inputs the oil to the manifold. First thing I took off the input line at the manifold. With the pump running oil just barely dribbled out. In another old thread on a Cinel 60 with lubrication problems the op said according to the manual the pressure is reduced to 5 PSI for the oiling manifold. Sure did not look like 5 PSI to me, but I did not measure it. You can see from the tag that the operating pressure is 200 PSI. I put some oil on the table lead screw drive assembly and let it run for about 5 minutes. As a result you can see in the last picture a tiny amount of oil was starting to come out on the table ways - but only in the front two places. Any others I could see were still dry. I don't think the metering orifices are plugged, but rather little/no input to the manifold. From other thread and because the cover is clearly labeled 'filter' - right above the fill port on the knee - I took out the 3 screws and pulled the filter. Bendix stainless steel mesh outside. Looked clean as a whistle, what I could see on outside. And since the rapids work fine (I'm thinking they are hydraulic?) I think the high pressure output must be OK. But without a manual or some idea of what I am doing I'm not about to tear blindly into the knee right now.

    You are correct on the backlash control knob - stamped lettering still there but paint gone. When I pulled the table (using the 2MI manual I have for a guide - appears to match up just fine) I played with it to see how it worked. Seemed OK.

    I am going to continue searching for a manual. Sent an email to a person who posted on here but not active in a while who seemed to have one. That the trouble with what appears to be a somewhat uncommon machine. But at least still making progress. Somebody designed and built this thing so it has to be fixable.

    Dale
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails saddle-oil-1.jpg   saddle-oil-2.jpg   saddle-oil-3.jpg   saddle-oil-4.jpg  

  14. #32
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    Default Oil Pressure Problems

    Finally got a chance to do some more trouble shooting this morning. Three pictures attached. I managed to get a manual for the COVEL 60, which covers the knee/saddle/table on this machine.

    As the problem is low lubrication pressure I tried checking the pressure as described in the manual. Picture 1 you see the threaded portion sticking out of the left side. Removed the pipe plug above it - started with am 80 psi gauge that pegged, spec is 5 psi. The adjustment is backed out, which maximizes the lube oil pressure. As I did not have any other gauges I rounded up 2 more the past week. This morning I checked it again and it indicated 160 pounds. In the second picture you see the 'hockey puck' mounted on the bottom of the saddle, fed by the lube oil supply line. That part does not show in the manual and I'm guessing it is a pressure reducer? The output to the distribution manifold in the saddle just dribbles oil out so I'm guessing that is what it is. I did not have a fitting to check the oil pressure at the line end, I am assuming it is the 160 indicated at the test port.

    I decided to check the main pump oil pressure. That is supposed to be 200 psi. Gauge gives a reading of 200-250 psi, oscillating at a high rate. I'll have to print off a page in the manual and add it later - there are two oil pumps in this, a high side and a low side, from what I make of it. I next pulled the oil filter. Does not look bad, but who knows what the inside is like. It is missing the spring shown in the manual. Anyone ever seen a filter move enough to cause an oscillation like that? I'm guessing as I have it apart maybe should just get a new filter and find some kind of spring to help keep it in place?

    Any ideas/suggestions on how to proceed welcome. Especially since my education continues, never having been into a system like this before.

    Dale
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails pressure-1.jpg   pressure-2.jpg   pressure-3.jpg  

  15. #33
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    The term pressure/psi when used to describe a fluid usually falls into a semantic argument. .
    Cincinnati marked the plate with a pressure induced by the flow. So with respect to that:
    Pressure at the test port is correct.....+200.
    The manifold takes the flow and it is delivered at a determined rate via a number of resistance fittings.
    Some of the locations need the same rate of flow. Oil flow to the table ways will require the same rate of flow.
    For example if each lubrication point for the table ways needed ten drops of oil per minute then the resistance
    fittings will be selected accordingly. The flow for the knee ways may only require five drops per minute and the
    saddle screw three.
    The concept is a maximum possible rate of flow is delivered to the manifold. Single line resistance of flow is maintained
    by the resistance fittings to maintain a metered rate for each line from the manifold. The metered rate of flow per line
    will be constant even if other resistance fittings are plugged up from debris.
    So with that out of the way the task is to see if a constant flow rate is delivered to the different families of lubrication points.
    The table ways are the easy ones. The wiper covers of the saddle may need to be removed to verify the presence of oil.
    The knee ways will have some oil moving to the base.
    The oil filter will usually collect waxes or tacifiers that settle out of the oil. Any that get past the filter may plug the
    restrictive fittings. There is no good way to clean the fittings and replacement is the best way to restore the proper rate of flow per line.
    Restrictive fittings are numbered with respect to rate of flow. A fitting with a #2 will deliver double the rate of a #1. The rate of a #5 is double the rate of a #4.
    The oscillation in the measured psi at the test port may be a bypass feature of the filter and that is why the spring is present. That may be a design element and not a problem. Otherwise replace with an identical filter.
    Bijur Lubrication Parts, bijurlubrication.com ... Call Devco Toll-Free (800) 323-3826
    untitled1.jpguntitled2.jpguntitled3.jpglub101-slr-490px_01.jpg
    John


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