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Toolmaster 1D vs Van Norman 22L

In few words: two different beasts.
The Toolmaster i a vertical mill with a quill, much beefier than a Bridgeport. The VN excels as horizontal, is very handy to be able to rotate the head at any angle and it's a tank. It was marketed with three spindle types: VN No. 2 collets (= Hardinge V50), B&S 13, and NMTB 50. The latter is by far the most desirable, given the abundance and price of the tooling. The major downside is that, given the size and rigidity of the machine, the work envelope with the head in vertical position is rather limited (if I recall correctly, in the range of 12-14").

Paolo
 
That looks like one of the more modern VN 22LU's, and it does have the universal table.

It seems reasonably likely the spindle is a NMTB50?

You have full side controls there, etc. If you were considering it, look around for the
arbor supports of course.
 
for heavy metal removal, the vn can run big shell mills and make big chips. it can't really do much else-

the spindle is much too slow for smaller cutters.

the cincinnati spindle will do 5600 rpm, has a quill- so you can drill and tap- and has a 40 taper which
is pretty stout compared to something like a bpt series 1 . it will not hog like the big VN mill, and will
choke if you try to use big face mills.

best bet: have them both.
 
Cal Haines said:
What are the prices?

Cal
Click to expand...

Both currently have Texas prices, not Ohio prices :D. The VN is asking $400 more than the TM, but has been hanging around a while. But I suspect both may be willing to deal.

I truly have not been looking to buy right now, as I have project(s) :D. But if the price fell right, maybe. Today, I'd say the Toolmaster may be a better choice for my particular shop. It would be an upgrade over a Bridgeport J head that has an R8 spindle. And for what Bridgeports sell for. . . I could probably turn the Bridgeport and be somewhere around even money in the end.

I have a heavy horizontal with vertical attachment that I'm putting together, not a universal table, but pretty versatile all the same. In the No2 - No3 size range. NMTB 50 on horizontal, 40 on the vertical. The nature of a Van Norman is pretty intriguing, particularly if I manage to piece together some of the sub-head attachments like the universal high speed milling attachment, drilling/boring attachment, etc.
 
Might be a nice Toolmaster under all of that grime and blue paint. Even looks to have some of the original coolant piping, which is unusual (if you buy the TM and don't want to keep the piping, let me know...)

Be sure to check operation of the table power feed gearbox. It's missing the knobs on the shift levers (common and easy to replace from McMaster-Carr), but if there's internal damage to the gears or shafts, you'll have an expensive repair to make or have made the parts.

You might also want to check that the motors (spindle and table powerfeed pancake, and coolant pump) are still dual voltage capable. I missed that one on my Toolmaster, and it cost quite a few dollars to have the table feed motor re-wound to use 220v 3ph (it had been re-wound previously, and to cut costs, they'd wound it for 440v 3ph only - I don't have 440v in my shop, so it was re-wind again, or find a step-up transformer.)
 
Inquired on both. Was told last night that the Toolmaster was sold, but would confirm today. Was confirmed, its gone.

No reply on the VN as of yet.

Easy decisions :D. No need to scramble around.
 
I don’t see the point of the VN in addition to your present mill. Toolmaster would’ve been my choice.

I owned a 22LU and vertical headroom is painful, and the special attachments seem scarce.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Funny story. I sent a message to the VN seller:

"What days and times are available to see the Van Norman mill ?

The reply I got back:

"Yes, its still available."

:D I don't know how to reply to that without coming off sarcastic. Now I'm scared to ask serious questions. :D :D
 
Weight and selling price for a 22L - Universal in 1953: 3,650 pounds and $9,285.00
No. 22L, special universal, 28" table travel 45" x l0" table
Last serial number issued on or prior to December 31, 1947 6960
 
I took my VN 22LU off the trailer with my 3000 lb
Clark fork lift. I got it pretty tight to the back
of the forks, and it really could not pick it straight
up, but it could tip it back. I got it tilted back and
that gave me 1" off the trailer deck. I slowly pulled
the trailer away, and carefully cracked the lowering
valve. Once I got it in the shop, I could put it anywhere
with my 5000 lb pallet jack.

--Doozer
 
Funny enough that Toolmaster is sitting in my shop.... It was in sad shape and I have had to put a new variable speed pulley and motor on it... The motor is now a 2 hp. Guess how much Five wants for a set of vari pulleys ??? Well if you guess about 16,000.00 you would be in the ballpark :eek:

The table and ways are in great shape so I am not going to scrape them.

The downfeed gearbox has a leak inside it so that was the reason it was empty when I bought it... Today my friend Don is coming over to help take the head off again so I can remove one gear located inside the bottom pan. After that it is a simple matter to remove the gearbox and replace all the o ring seals.... Lucky they are all common o rings or parts might have been a problem..

It is a heavy beast! My tractor will lift a common bridgeport with ease but was unable to lift the toolmaster off the trailer. A friend came over with the biggest wheeled Bobcat they make and picked it up easily...
 
swatkins said:
Funny enough that Toolmaster is sitting in my shop.... It was in sad shape and I have had to put a new variable speed pulley and motor on it... The motor is now a 2 hp. Guess how much Five wants for a set of vari pulleys ??? Well if you guess about 16,000.00 you would be in the ballpark :eek:

The table and ways are in great shape so I am not going to scrape them.

The downfeed gearbox has a leak inside it so that was the reason it was empty when I bought it... Today my friend Don is coming over to help take the head off again so I can remove one gear located inside the bottom pan. After that it is a simple matter to remove the gearbox and replace all the o ring seals.... Lucky they are all common o rings or parts might have been a problem..

It is a heavy beast! My tractor will lift a common bridgeport with ease but was unable to lift the toolmaster off the trailer. A friend came over with the biggest wheeled Bobcat they make and picked it up easily...
Click to expand...

Dammit ! I liked you more before you retired. :D

You should let me come look it. . . and let me use your surface plate to check a 36" straight edge. :D
 
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