Toolmaster 1D vs Van Norman 22L - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by swatkins View Post
    Sure.. When?
    I'll give you a shout tomorrow, appreciate it.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Both currently have Texas prices, not Ohio prices . The VN is asking $400 more than the TM, but has been hanging around a while. But I suspect both may be willing to deal.

    I truly have not been looking to buy right now, as I have project(s) . But if the price fell right, maybe. Today, I'd say the Toolmaster may be a better choice for my particular shop. It would be an upgrade over a Bridgeport J head that has an R8 spindle. And for what Bridgeports sell for. . . I could probably turn the Bridgeport and be somewhere around even money in the end.

    I have a heavy horizontal with vertical attachment that I'm putting together, not a universal table, but pretty versatile all the same. In the No2 - No3 size range. NMTB 50 on horizontal, 40 on the vertical. The nature of a Van Norman is pretty intriguing, particularly if I manage to piece together some of the sub-head attachments like the universal high speed milling attachment, drilling/boring attachment, etc.
    if you were to have to operate on South Georgia Island keeping whaling ships functional and could only have ONE, the VN could save yer ass on heavy work.. and waste yer days on less, but git 'er done, just not fast.

    With a stout horizontal or combo already under-roof?

    No CONTEST.. grab that Toolmaster, peddle the BirdPort!

    More than just an "upgrade" over a BirdPort. Whole new game. Not quite "perfect", they have the odd minor glitch, but otherwise what a medium-sized vertical SHOULD be.

    First one I ever used taught me to keep my distance from a fool BirdPort, ever-after, and I have done. Didn't look that much bigger. It isn't, really, but..

    Picture it:

    Captive keyway, both ends radiused. 3/4" square. On a taper. Cut is easy, but..

    ... what NEEDS a 3/4" key six inches long?

    The shaft it went into wudda ruint a BeePee's knee off the length and mass in the overhang! Compare the width of their table supports vs the length of their tables.

    Toolmaster plunged, ran the cut, finished, and done, emulsion coolant, not one damned bit of drama, that tasking or any other.

    Almost made me like vertical mills, but not quite.

    Too much Neanderthal DNA I guess?



    One caveat. Go cheap or stay home. Expect to have to MAKE most parts if yah need any.

    That "first time" was tail-end of 1964.

    An Induma or Republic-Lagun would be easily as stout, and easier to get parts for. They ain't BirdPorts, either.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    No CONTEST.. grab that Toolmaster, peddle the BirdPort!
    This thread is a few months old, Steve beat me to it apparently . He's been doing a youtube channel, his first vid of this machine was at sellers warehouse a few days before I posted this thread. I hadn't seen the vid at the time, just the advert on FB.

    He since has a couple restore vids on it.

    Part 1:
    Restoring an Old Machine Tool. Cincinnati D1 Toolmaster Mill Part 1 - YouTube

    Part 2:
    Restoring a Toolmaster 1D : Part 2 Off with the head and figuring out what's wrong with it... - YouTube

    I'm up to my eyeballs in projects anyway, but I'll keep a casual eye out for anything interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    This thread is a few months old, Steve beat me to it apparently . He's been doing a youtube channel, his first vid of this machine was at sellers warehouse a few days before I posted this thread. I hadn't seen the vid at the time, just the advert on FB.

    He since has a couple restore vids on it.

    Part 1:
    Restoring an Old Machine Tool. Cincinnati D1 Toolmaster Mill Part 1 - YouTube

    Part 2:
    Restoring a Toolmaster 1D : Part 2 Off with the head and figuring out what's wrong with it... - YouTube

    I'm up to my eyeballs in projects anyway, but I'll keep a casual eye out for anything interesting.
    Huron/Oerlikon. Oerlikon Italia?



    "Real vertical mills" didn't vanish from this Earth just because Bee's Peed as add-ons to horizontals until they earned the cost of enough iron to grow an ass of their very own!

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  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    Huron/Oerlikon. Oerlikon Italia?

    lol, yea that's a big one I'm eager to finish. But currently #2 behind the Monarch, followed by the Cincinnati 10x24 universal grinder, then a B & S surface grinder which I can still power up use.

    Oh, and I need to build my portable rack to stack idler motors, and still sort out the 20hp rpc. So my next 5 years of free time are covered. Thanks for the reminder.

    Been on a good roll the past year or so though. Finished the other South Bend 16 and got it sold, so freed up needed floor space and have been able to clean up and organize a bit. Should have funny stories to post before too long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Oh, and I need to build my portable rack to stack idler motors
    Keep an eye on Northern tool for these to come back .

    Drum Rack Dolly | Northern Tool + Equipment

    - or a replacement. Not all of Northern's good are Chinese, thankfully. I have four of them now, my shipping being free.

    The casters are good ones, two with good brakes, fasteners are proper, and I can't really buy the raw steel, cut it, weld it, and powder coat it anywhere near as cheaply as just buy these and bolt them up.

    My RPC idlers, my gen set diesel aux tanks, the Kasto PHS .. lots of stuff as needs mobility these can be adapted for with very little effort.

    .

  8. #27
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    Made it over to Steve Watkins shop, and among other things got a peak at the Toolmaster 1D.

    He's working on fixing a couple of leaks, but the machine all in all looks pretty good.

    25.jpg 29.jpg 30.jpg

    Looking at knee's saddle ways he got cleaned up:

    26.jpg

    Ways on column:

    27.jpg

  9. #28
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    Looking at the backside, and into electric compartment, nice and neat:

    31.jpg 28.jpg

    Poor picture, but a down feed box getting rebuilt:

    32.jpg

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    For better or worse I have joined the ranks of Cincinnati Toolmaster owners. Where does a person look to see what version it is? Mine has the collet style spindle so I am assuming its not the latest model. Serial number 6J4V5H-79. There was a set of collets that came with it plus a little tooling and accessories so at least I don’t have to buy the collets. Bought it on an auction in Broken Arrow OK for $1250. Some day I would like to find a decent Van Norman 26-28-36-38 to go with the Cinci. Been looking for a Van Norman longer than a Toolmaster but that is how life goes sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gearclash View Post
    For better or worse I have joined the ranks of Cincinnati Toolmaster owners. Where does a person look to see what version it is? Mine has the collet style spindle so I am assuming its not the latest model. Serial number 6J4V5H-79. There was a set of collets that came with it plus a little tooling and accessories so at least I don’t have to buy the collets. Bought it on an auction in Broken Arrow OK for $1250. Some day I would like to find a decent Van Norman 26-28-36-38 to go with the Cinci. Been looking for a Van Norman longer than a Toolmaster but that is how life goes sometimes.
    The Toolmasters with collet spindles are 1B's. You can find a basic run down on Toolmasters here:
    Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - Toolmaster Milling Machines | VintageMachinery.org

    The pdf:
    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/15220.pdf

    Toolmasters from the late 1950's into the very early sixties had a bit of a rounded style overarm.

    In the mid 1960's the overarm is more box or rectangular style.

    If you go to this link, and click Publication date, the dates of manuals will appear in chronological order, verse random. Look at the pubs from late 1950's moving forward, there is several for Toolmasters, manuals and such:
    Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org

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  13. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gearclash View Post
    For better or worse I have joined the ranks of Cincinnati Toolmaster owners. Where does a person look to see what version it is? Mine has the collet style spindle so I am assuming its not the latest model. Serial number 6J4V5H-79. There was a set of collets that came with it plus a little tooling and accessories so at least I don’t have to buy the collets. Bought it on an auction in Broken Arrow OK for $1250. Some day I would like to find a decent Van Norman 26-28-36-38 to go with the Cinci. Been looking for a Van Norman longer than a Toolmaster but that is how life goes sometimes.
    You have a 1959 vintage Toolmaster, so an earlier one. I can't recall if the "4V" in the serial number is for the 1-A (manual only downfeed to the quill) or the 1-B (manual or powered downfeed [0.002" or 0.006" selectable] to the quill), but those are the two models that use the Superflex collets directly in the spindle nose. Of the two, the 1-B seems to be the more common.

    These are solid machines for a turret mill, and I much prefer my 1-B to the Bridgeports I've used.

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    Thanks for the information!

    What I have is in fact a 1-D. Looking at the Cincinnati literature makes it clear. What I thought was a collet tool holder in the spindle is actually a 40 taper tool holder with a collet. This machine does have the power feed quill and also a power feed table.

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  17. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gearclash View Post
    Thanks for the information!

    What I have is in fact a 1-D. Looking at the Cincinnati literature makes it clear. What I thought was a collet tool holder in the spindle is actually a 40 taper tool holder with a collet. This machine does have the power feed quill and also a power feed table.
    That was a quick upgrade !

    I'd like a 1D or 1E myself. There's a 1B near me in rough shape I could have for a song, but man I have some projects already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gearclash View Post
    Thanks for the information!

    What I have is in fact a 1-D. Looking at the Cincinnati literature makes it clear. What I thought was a collet tool holder in the spindle is actually a 40 taper tool holder with a collet. This machine does have the power feed quill and also a power feed table.
    Congrats. Very nice to have a 1-D. And to have the powerfeed for the table (I'm assuming you mean the table and not the crossfeed - both were available, but the crossfeed is relatively rare) is great to have. But be gentle with the gearbox - as you may have noticed if you've done a search here for "Toolmaster," the internals can be damaged from abuse and/or neglect, and replacement parts are impossible to find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood1968 View Post
    Congrats. Very nice to have a 1-D. And to have the powerfeed for the table (I'm assuming you mean the table and not the crossfeed - both were available, but the crossfeed is relatively rare) is great to have. But be gentle with the gearbox - as you may have noticed if you've done a search here for "Toolmaster," the internals can be damaged from abuse and/or neglect, and replacement parts are impossible to find.
    Mine is the “power feed to table”, not the “power feed to saddle”.

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    Gorton tool holders. Does anybody know much about them? My Toolmaster came with a Gorton K-7233 NMTB40 toolholder; it uses a collet system very much like an ER. The longer taper looks the same as the ER taper, the short (nut side) is different. Looks like the collets for this Gorton are about the same size as an ER 40. Google doesn’t seem to think this thing exists. I haven’t been able to find collets that resemble them anywhere. At least I got a full set with the mill, but it would be helpful to know if there is anything still available yet or if it is totally orphaned. Thanks!

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    After some digging I found some answers to my question.

    WTB Gorton Quick Change Chuck

    Pictures in post #3 of this thread is what I have. Universal Engineering ZZ collet.


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