Van Norman #12 on CL. Any info please?

shaggy · Jul 6, 2020

Hi guys. This mill's been on CL for awhile, and I'm curious. Pics aren't great so I've requested some better ones and more info. Surprisingly, there's zero to little about VN mills on the lathes.co.uk site.

Any background on this model VN, and whether or not it might be a worthwhile candidate for rehab would be greatly appreciated.

(pics below, for what they're worth)

-thanks!
Dave

Cal Haines · Jul 6, 2020

shaggy said:
Hi guys. This mill's been on CL for awhile, and I'm curious. Pics aren't great so I've requested some better ones and more info. Surprisingly, there's zero to little about VN mills on the lathes.co.uk site.

Any background on this model VN, and whether or not it might be a worthwhile candidate for rehab would be greatly appreciated.

(pics below, for what they're worth)

-thanks!
Dave

There's a wealth of information about Van Norman milling machines at Vintage Machinery (link). Here's the brochure for the Van Norman No. 12: link

The machine in question is a later model No. 12, built in 1952. It incorporates a number of the design changes done for it successor, the No. 16. The changes include a new cutter-head and table. I note that the machine has coolant, which you don't often see on a No. 12. It's missing the overarm support bracket, used for horizontal milling; they aren't easy to find. You'll want to ask if the universal dividing head that's sitting on the table is included with the machine and ask what tooling comes with it.

A Van Norman No. 12 is a good candidate to recondition. In good condition, with tooling, one is worth up to about $1500.

Cal

shaggy · Jul 6, 2020

Well, I did some looking around online and found some original sales literature, manuals, parts lists, etc. Unfortunately I can't upload the pdf's here.

But it looks like a really nice solid little universal mill! Weight is 1650 lbs (w/ out motor).

I called the seller and will go check it out on Wednesday

Will see if I can somehow get some pics up here, but here's a link to the pdf manual:

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2109/16545.pdf

Any feedback would be welcome.

--cheers

shaggy · Jul 6, 2020

Hey thanks Cal! I must've been posting just as you were. Thanks for the links.

1952? That's good to hear, I was thinking 1945 or so. That would've been OK, too.

Yeah, I hope there's some arbors and end mill holders, at least. Don't know what the taper of it is, but I've a feeling they won't be easy to find.
Haven't asked about the indexing head yet (or the overarm support), but I will.

There's a shxtload of gear trains in this thing. Hoping it's not too optimistic to think they'd all be OK.

Fingers crossed, this is the machine I've been waiting for... more compact than a BP, and (likely) more rigid.

I'll keep you updated

--cheers!
Dave

Cal Haines · Jul 7, 2020

The spindle taper is Van Norman "C". People sometimes call it a "5V" taper, because Hardinge makes collets that fit and label them "5V". Hardinge still sells new collets, but they're expensive. (link) You can usually find Van Norman C tooling on eBay, but there's none currently listed.

It's certainly more rigid and capable than a Bridgeport, but a Van Norman No. 12 doesn't have a quill, so they're not easy to use for drilling holes. (That's the only thing that a Bridgeport has in its favor.)

Cal

shaggy · Jul 7, 2020

Thanks. Hardinge collets, @ $200+ :eek:

-I'll watch out for VN 'C's and hope this one comes with some, at least for now.

I was going to say, in this case I'm glad of the 'lack of' a quill. That's exactly what I wanted. Quills IME are likely to suddenly obey the laws of gravity at the worst possible moment :bawling:

One reason I got rid of my Rockwell vertical.

Drill presses are for drillin', mills are fer millin'

shaggy · Jul 8, 2020

Cal Haines said:
The spindle taper is Van Norman "C". People sometimes call it a "5V" taper, because Hardinge makes collets that fit and label them "5V". Hardinge still sells new collets, but they're expensive. (link) You can usually find Van Norman C tooling on eBay, but there's none currently listed.

It's certainly more rigid and capable than a Bridgeport, but a Van Norman No. 12 doesn't have a quill, so they're not easy to use for drilling holes. (That's the only thing that a Bridgeport has in its favor.)

Cal

Update: I found out it comes with 7 original VN3 collets (1/8" to 3/4"), and also the overarm support. Forgot to ask about arbors. Seller says all feeds and speed changes work, and run quiet. He's 'hoping to get' $1500, I think including the indexing head, if I want it. I'll lay eyes on it tomorrow, and hopefully will be bringing it home soon.

PS - Has original 1-1/2 hp 3-phase motor running off a VFD, which is included.

I have a problem in that I'm realizing this is not gonna be an easy dismantle and shove bits in the back of my SUV, like the Rockwell was. It's twice the weight and has way more parts to keep track of. Thinking I'd better just rent a liftgate box truck and get it back in one piece. Any recommendations for liftgate truck rentals in the SF East Bay? They seem few and far between.

Cal Haines · Jul 8, 2020

Have you checked with Penske commercial? Don't know about the bay area, but several options here. A flatbed is a better choice because it's easier to chain the machine down.

Moving a mill with a lift-gate truck isn't something for rookie. Consider hiring a roll-back wrecker at each end and using a car trailer for the move.

Cal

Paolo_MD · Jul 8, 2020

One more vote against liftgate truck, unless you have a lot of experience: the liftgate it's at an angle fairly close to the tipping point of a mill, especially with the motor overhead.
The base of a VN 12 is rather small. The only way I'd use a liftgate would be by carefully cribbing the mill so that it could be translated to the liftgate at 6-8 inches from the ground.

I assume that the towing package for your SUV hasn't arrived yet. Otherwise, the best option would be a drop-deck trailer.

Paolo

Kirt · Jul 8, 2020

shaggy said:
Update: I found out it comes with 7 original VN3 collets (1/8" to 3/4"), and also the overarm support. Forgot to ask about arbors. Seller says all feeds and speed changes work, and run quiet. He's 'hoping to get' $1500, I think including the indexing head, if I want it. I'll lay eyes on it tomorrow, and hopefully will be bringing it home soon.

PS - Has original 1-1/2 hp 3-phase motor running off a VFD, which is included.

I have a problem in that I'm realizing this is not gonna be an easy dismantle and shove bits in the back of my SUV, like the Rockwell was. It's twice the weight and has way more parts to keep track of. Thinking I'd better just rent a liftgate box truck and get it back in one piece. Any recommendations for liftgate truck rentals in the SF East Bay? They seem few and far between.

The dividing head in the picture is a Van Norman 10" Vertical Swivel Dividing Head. Probably not intended for use on the 12, but certainly substantial and well made. The spindle is 50 NMTB.

Cal Haines · Jul 8, 2020

A drop-deck trailer is definitely the way to go, if you can find one. Unfortunately, nobody around here rents them anymore.

Personally, I never try to move a mill without bolting it down to a custom pallet with a 2x deck, like this:

I jack the machine up and build the pallet underneath it. Once on the pallet, a pallet jack can be used to safely move the machine around.

Getting the machine onto the lift gate isn't a big problem with the pallet. The real danger is during lifting/lowering with the gate. Any time you stop the gate the truck's suspension will bounce and can easily tip a top-heavy load off the gate. I handle that by using a strap around the top of the machine and a chain-hoist or come-along to belay the machine as I lift. I raise/lower about 6 inches at a time and adjust the belay as necessary. Definately not something I suggest that a novice rigger try.

Cal

shaggy · Jul 9, 2020

Thanks guys for the advice on moving, which makes a ton of sense, and the info on the dividing head. As it happens I didn't need to move it, part of the reason being that I was aware how ill-prepared I am for it.

Here's an update: I went and had a good look at this machine yesterday. Electrics (original 3 phase via 220V 1 ph through a VFD) are funky looking, but it runs and all the speed and gear changes work. The coolant pump did not seem to work, and was never used by the seller.

The ways and table seem in decent shape, but covered in thick crud and surface rust. Freed up enough to get some movement. Machine has had little use and zero maintenence in at least 30 years. A lot of backlash in the knee screw/nut. Feed lever engagement on table is a bit iffy. No end-of-travel trips or stops present.

There were only four collets, and no arbors or any other tooling. The indexing head wasn't included, but it was no great prize as far as condition goes (everything was rusted tight), and had only the one index plate. The overarm support and ram are badly rusted; light rust on some other areas of the machine, however it would clean up OK.

$1200 was about as low as he would go. It wasn't an easy decision, but given the lack of tooling and amount of work needed, I passed on it for now. I may have another chance, but some other guy is interested now.

So was I crazy to pass it up? Or would I have been crazy to have dragged it home? I'm still trying to figure that out!

(Pics to follow)

shaggy · Jul 9, 2020

BTW, at the time, I'd already ditched the idea of the lift gate, and was going to rent a regular u-haul open trailer. The seller had loan of a forklift, but at destination I would've had to singlehandedly get the machine down a ramp (2x 10 foot 3x12s) single-handedly. I'm not quite that crazy (yet).

Some pics...

shaggy · Jul 9, 2020

I'm rethinking this now. It's a unique machine around these parts, and I probably passed it up too easily. I'm confident I can handle the moving part safely if I'm not rushed. I'm just waiting to see if I can renegotiate with the seller, or not.
Money is not really the issue in this case, but I am curious what, given my description (incl. lack of tooling), you all think this machine should be worth.

A few more pics...

Mike C. · Jul 9, 2020

Easy way to safely move a 12 is to take an engine hoist with you and remove the entire ram and the table. Drops it to a much smaller overall package, lowers the CG to a foot off the floor, and gets the weight to about 500lbs max, per piece. Also, you can pretty easily convert R8 tooling to VN C. Just need to make up a male thread drawbar to replace the VN tubular one. Drill chuck arbors, stub arbors, shell mills, Weldon type endmill holders, etc... can be quickly modified on a small lathe.

swarfmeister · Jul 9, 2020

I've got an older No. 12 in my basement. Keep your eyes peeled on Ebay and you'll see the collets show up every once in a while. I started out with three or four and filled out the set over the course of six months or so. Nice solid player. Only disadvantage is the lack of a quill.

Cal Haines · Jul 9, 2020

shaggy said:
BTW, at the time, I'd already ditched the idea of the lift gate, and was going to rent a regular u-haul open trailer. The seller had loan of a forklift, but at destination I would've had to singlehandedly get the machine down a ramp (2x 10 foot 3x12s) single-handedly. I'm not quite that crazy (yet).

Some pics...

$1200 seems pretty high to me. Call him up, give him your number and your best offer and move on. Maybe check back in a month.

I can't really tell from your photos, but the Y-axis ways don't look that great to me. I don't see the overarm arbor support bracket in any of your photos. You're missing part of the automatic feed stop. Here's what it's supposed to look like:

Note also the condition of the ways. That machine sold for $2000, including an old drill press, 8 collets, a 1" horizontal arbor, and 10 Weldon-type endmill holders.

Cal

Doug W · Jul 9, 2020

My VN 12 spindle was chewed up so I made a new one with 30NTMB taper, solved all the can't find arbors and collets issues.
Not and easy project, but a solution.

I also like being able to horizontally drill on the VN when I don't have the daylight under the BP clone.

If you don't have a mill a BP version would be a better choice, as a 2nd mill they do many things far better and faster than a BP.

shaggy · Jul 10, 2020

Mike C. said:
Easy way to safely move a 12 is to take an engine hoist with you and remove the entire ram and the table. Drops it to a much smaller overall package, lowers the CG to a foot off the floor, and gets the weight to about 500lbs max, per piece. Also, you can pretty easily convert R8 tooling to VN C. Just need to make up a male thread drawbar to replace the VN tubular one. Drill chuck arbors, stub arbors, shell mills, Weldon type endmill holders, etc... can be quickly modified on a small lathe.

Thanks! I already got it done, mostly... it's at it's new home as we speak, sitting in the trailer awaiting roll-off into position. Next step will be down a slight incline and onto greased 1/2" ply set on inverted angle iron over a brick pathway. Luckily I 'engineered' that pathway myself, with straight and level 2x6" dug-in sides, solid as a rock.

I'll grease up the plywood and haul the machine into position with an electric winch, anchored here and there in a concrete slab, when possible. Or rollers -- I found 1'' pipe tilts the machine a little far, 3/8" or 1/2" dia. steel rod on ply sounds about right.

Lotsa nutting things out, and good hard work, and all so far successful. Very satisfying. Will post pics of progress soon.

PS -- Thanks for the ideas on improvising arbors, etc. I may be forced to as I've only found collets so far.

shaggy · Jul 10, 2020

swarfmeister said:
I've got an older No. 12 in my basement. Keep your eyes peeled on Ebay and you'll see the collets show up every once in a while. I started out with three or four and filled out the set over the course of six months or so. Nice solid player. Only disadvantage is the lack of a quill.

Thanks! I think I'm gonna like it. I think it ought to be able to take some serious cuts compared to what I'm used to (notwithstanding the smallish collets). Anyway, it's about as big as I can fit, or want to move!

Van Norman #12 on CL. Any info please?

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