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Van Norman 16S

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
This thread was originally part of this thread: Looking for Monarch 18 CBB parts/general help restoring


Awesome, the price went up to $2500 when I added in the van Norman 16, and I'm happy with that ...
What version Van Norman 16? There was a No. 16 and 16U, which were the follow on to the No. 12. The next generation was the No. 16L, 16M and 16S, all of which were available with a universal table ('U' suffix). If you scored a 16S for $500 you did real well.

Cal
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What version Van Norman 16? There was a No. 16 and 16U, which were the follow on to the No. 12. The next generation was the No. 16L, 16M and 16S, all of which were available with a universal table ('U' suffix). If you scored a 16S for $500 you did real well.

Cal
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On the plate it just said "Model No. 16" I'm not there right now so I can't confirm, and it was in a tight spot as well, supposedly it has power feed in all directions, and the taper on it was not the 5V taper I've read that they usually come with, it was a more common taper....can't remember which one though, but the guy has tooling that fits it fine. I'll dig out a picture I took of it and see if you can make it out
 
8cd07bc79d044ba8a7b460acd39b8118.jpg


It was really buried, unfortunately this was the only photo I took. Iirc it has a 2 or 3 HP motor

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Yep, that's a 16S! You lucky dog! I would love to have one of those, but they're rare as hen's teeth. It think they were available with either the Van Norman 'C' taper (which folks incorrectly call 5V, because Hardinge makes 5V collets that fit the 'C' spindle) or 30 taper. Power feed on the X-axis only, no rapids, no backlash compensation. The 16S is the only model in the series with a spindle and the spindle has power feed as well.

Does it come with any tooling? Is the over-arm arbor support bracket still with it (make sure you ask about it)?

The heavy iron forum (link) is a good place to get help with Van Norman mills, or you can e-mail me directly.

Cal
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Yep, that's a 16S! You lucky dog! I would love to have one of those, but they're rare as hen's teeth. It think they were available with either the Van Norman 'C' taper (which folks incorrectly call 5V, because Hardinge makes 5V collets that fit the 'C' spindle) or 30 taper. Power feed on the X-axis only, no rapids, no backlash compensation. The 16S is the only model in the series with a spindle and the spindle has power feed as well.

Does it come with any tooling? Is the over-arm arbor support bracket still with it (make sure you ask about it)?

The heavy iron forum (link) is a good place to get help with Van Norman mills, or you can e-mail me directly.

Cal
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I don't think it comes with the overarm support, and yes, it is an NMTB 30 taper, couldn't remember the name of it, but he has plenty of tooling that fits it and he said he'd throw some in (collet holder and maybe a cutter arbor and a handful of other stuff) I would love any help you can provide on it, I was just looking around to see if I could find the handles/dials anywhere and couldn't find them.

I will say, he said the place this came from may have modified the feeds a bit, so it may have some sort of feed system for y and z, but no way to tell till it's dug out, no matter what it has, I'll be happy with it, this will be my first real mill (and lathe for that matter) I've had a benchtop mill/drill (that I actually bought from the same guy) that's a taiwan import from the 80s that.....is ok, but it's on a round back pillar and it likes to rotate on me if I push it too hard. I'm holding on to the mill/drill until I can get the van norman up and running, which I hope will be quick.

Current plan is to have it in my garage wednesday, but it's all logistics at this point, I'm committed. I'll be sure to ask about the overarm support, but like the change gears for the Rockland, if he has it it's probably buried somewhere tucked away until the end of time. If that's the case, I'll be sure to fab one if I can get dimensions for it.

Also, when you say spindle, do you mean a quill for the spindle? I read in that manual that it has a quill, which got me excited since the guy selling this said he didn't think it did, but he's probably going on the assumption that it's a model 16 and not a 16S.

As stated before, any and all information or assistance is appreciated, I've wanted to build my own hobby machine shop for years now, and have only recently come into the means of doing so, so I'm pretty damn green on all of this.
 
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Also, when you say spindle, do you mean a quill for the spindle? I read in that manual that it has a quill, which got me excited since the guy selling this said he didn't think it did, but he's probably going on the assumption that it's a model 16 and not a 16S.
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Yes, sorry. There are three different feed rates available for the quill. 4" travel.

It's defiantly got a quill, no question.

This is what the overarm arbor support bracket looks like on my No. 16U.
IMG_6965.jpg
The bracket for the 16S should be similar. Maybe if he sees a picture it will jog his memory. I don't know why people don't just stick them on the back end of the support bar when not in use, but a lot of these get lost over time. You can't do much in horizontal mode without it.

Cal
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Yes, sorry. There are three different feed rates available for the quill. 4" travel.

It's defiantly got a quill, no question.

This is what the overarm arbor support bracket looks like on my No. 16U.
View attachment 296398
The bracket for the 16S should be similar. Maybe if he sees a picture it will jog his memory. I don't know why people don't just stick them on the back end of the support bar when not in use, but a lot of these get lost over time. You can't do much in horizontal mode without it.

Cal
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Think I'll have to fab one, he doesn't think he got it with the machine but he's going to look around. I've had it delivered to my garage and it was definitely used in a production environment, all the elctrics have been replaced with Square D brand control blocks, I managed to figure out how to get the spindle to move, but the oil pump wasn't even wired, and I haven't figured out how to get the power feed motor to spin, and it probably needs to be rewired for 220, (oil pump probably does too, but it doesn't have a plate on it showing the wiring information)

I rewired the main motor for 220, and it's been getting very hot, I've not ran it for long, but at one point it did smoke a little bit, I rechecked my wiring and it is correct, I'm wondering if it's the phase converter I got, I originally got it to test the monarch and so it's a 7.5-10HP one, they do mention in the packaging not to use one that's 2 sizes larger or more than the motor, this one would be 2 sizes larger. I'm ordering the right size for it, but I'm still a bit worried. I'm getting about 250v out of the wall too, and the motor does say 208-220, this thing is definitely going to need some work, I'll post some of the pictures I took of it and I'll get more tomorrow.

I do like it so far, just messing around with what I can, seems to be a very sturdy mill, I just really don't want to burn the motor out of it or otherwise irreversibly damage part of it.
 
Cutting oil/coolant pump.

Electric equipment maybe newer than mill? Might have been changed out when all the travel switch stuff was added?


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Think I'll have to fab one, he doesn't think he got it with the machine but he's going to look around. I've had it delivered to my garage and it was definitely used in a production environment, all the elctrics have been replaced with Square D brand control blocks, I managed to figure out how to get the spindle to move, but the oil pump wasn't even wired, and I haven't figured out how to get the power feed motor to spin, and it probably needs to be rewired for 220, (oil pump probably does too, but it doesn't have a plate on it showing the wiring information)

I rewired the main motor for 220, and it's been getting very hot, I've not ran it for long, but at one point it did smoke a little bit, I rechecked my wiring and it is correct, I'm wondering if it's the phase converter I got, I originally got it to test the monarch and so it's a 7.5-10HP one, they do mention in the packaging not to use one that's 2 sizes larger or more than the motor, this one would be 2 sizes larger. I'm ordering the right size for it, but I'm still a bit worried. I'm getting about 250v out of the wall too, and the motor does say 208-220, this thing is definitely going to need some work, I'll post some of the pictures I took of it and I'll get more tomorrow.

I do like it so far, just messing around with what I can, seems to be a very sturdy mill, I just really don't want to burn the motor out of it or otherwise irreversibly damage part of it.
I wiring is correct I would take an end bell off and eye ball the winding's to see if any are cooked (discolored).
 
I wiring is correct I would take an end bell off and eye ball the winding's to see if any are cooked (discolored).
I did check them yesterday, they looked alright, read about 2.8 ohms across all coils too. Any other reason it could be running so hot?

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Missing a phase on the motor or too low a voltage on one phase will cause it to run HOT or the motor is toast and need to be rewound. There are 6 winding's on a two voltage motor and can only be checked with all wires disconnected.

If you have a clamp on amp meter check the amps on each phase. Of course a heavy load on the motor will cause it to run hot.
 
Missing a phase on the motor or too low a voltage on one phase will cause it to run HOT or the motor is toast and need to be rewound. There are 6 winding's on a two voltage motor and can only be checked with all wires disconnected.

If you have a clamp on amp meter check the amps on each phase. Of course a heavy load on the motor will cause it to run hot.
I unfortunately don't have a clamp on ammeter, what should each impedance be when they're disconnected?

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Unfortunately I do not know the ones that are connected in a Y will be doubled the ones that are single.
 
Think the main motor might have a problem, I just wired up the power feed motor and it works perfectly, no smoke, isn't getting hot quickly

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