Van Norman 1R3 bogs down then shuts down at higher RPM gears? - Page 2
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 36 of 36
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    60
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    27
    Likes (Received)
    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kd1yt View Post
    By the way, in expecting that I will be bearing-shopping to some greater or lesser degreee. I realize that bearing precision matters a great deal in spindle bearings. It probably even matters a considerable amount in the shaft out of the ram gearbox that has the bevel gear that intersects the spindles's bevel gear. But on the two "earlier shafts" (closer to the motor) of the ram's gear train, I assume that bearing precision is not necessarily quite as crucial. I'll want to get the best bearings that I can reasonably find and afford (and I have sometimes in the past found some very high grade bearings in matched sets at very reasonable prices on ebay, just by keeping an eye out and eventually finding someone asking a pedestrian price for upper-echelon bearings) but I'm not going to be able to be sinking unlimited sums into bearings.... Thanks
    As you mentioned, the spindle requires class 0 bearings (or better, but I'd say it's overkill as sub-thousandth tolerances are too much to expect of most any milling machine). Standard class 2 bearings have only .0015" runout however, and I wouldn't hesitate to put them in any position in the gearbox. Anything more than class 3 would be a waste of money I'd think, and I'd only buy class 3 if it were readily available and not much more money than class 2s.

    That said, if you find a bearing you need to replace, get it out and see how it's marked. If it's not marked, it's class 2 and replace it with such; if it's marked class 3, you might think harder about trying to replace it with like kind. If it's class 0, replace it with class 3 and light the remaining cash on fire for warmth, because it's winter and represents a better use of funds

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Posts
    13,230
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    6617
    Likes (Received)
    2561

    Default

    One thing I would do is to check that roller with a file. If it is not harder than the file, it could just be a taper pin that has fallen out of a shifter or something. As has been said, look over everything with a mirror and/or borescope and see if you can figure out exactly where that bearing came from. If you cannot find a missing roller, it is entirely possible that roller got dropped into the gearbox at some point in the past and is not in fact, out of the gearbox bearings. You can also put a screwdriver to the bearing end and your ear to use it as a stethoscope to pinpoint the bearing noises.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,660
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    863
    Likes (Received)
    490

    Default

    The best way to remove one of these cutter-heads is to block it up so that it's weight is supported by the table, then crank the table to the left to jack the head away from the ram:

    img_6973.jpg


    (Again, sorry about the rotation problem, it's a website issue.)

    The 1R3 ram gearbox is essentially the same gearbox used in the No. 12 and No. 16. In fact, most of the gears and shafts have "16-" part numbers, which means that they are borrowed from the No. 16. (The main difference between the No. 12 roller-bearing gearbox and the No. 16 gearbox it that they changed from keyed shafts to splined shafts, otherwise it's the same.) I'm pretty sure that there are no taper pins in there. What are the dimensions of the roller that you found?

    And yes, if a roller escaped from the cone assembly, the cage has started to come apart. It would be foolishness, in my humble opinion, to run the machine until you have inspected all the bearings. It's possible that, like my machine, bearings were replaced and the shims that control the backlash not attended to, allowing the shafts enough end-play to beat the cone cages to pieces. A full set of bearings and seals for my No. 16 gearbox was about $150. Only one of the bearings in the 1RQ, the VN #13917 (which is a Timken 17118 cone and 17244 cup), is the same however, so you're bearing prices will be different.

    The Timken class system defies understanding. Here's a link that lists the various classes and their runouts: Timken tapered roller bearings – truck bearings in my spindle?

    Cal

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Vermont, USA
    Posts
    456
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    6
    Likes (Received)
    112

    Default

    Thank you all for the continued great suggestions. The roller is about 0.435 long, about 0283 at the narrow end, and about 0.302 at the wide end. A file can scuff the roller but does not easily bite into it. Looks like I will be wisest to lift the shift cover off the gear train to see what I can observe, and also order up one of those bargain smartphone borescopes from eBay. I've got a minor bathroom project that I should do before I become engrossed in delving into the 1R3's insides, but I think that I can wrap up that other project quickly. Appreciate all of the suggestions and encouragement, please keep it coming!

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,660
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    863
    Likes (Received)
    490

    Default

    Yup, that's a roller from a tapered roller bearing, alright. That's the right length and the diameters are close to the rollers from the 17118 cones used in the output shaft on my No. 16. I guess it's possible that it got left in the sump when the bearings were replaced, but that in itself doesn't inspire confidence in whoever was in there last. Personally, I would take it apart at this point, just to be sure.

    I guess the bore scope is worth a shot. Let us know which one you use and how it goes. Maybe even post a video to YouTube?

    Before you take the shifter cover off, shift it into a known setting (I would use A-1). When you take the cover off, take a photo of the position of the gears and perhaps measure where each one is on its shaft. When you get ready to put it back together, just move the gears back into the original position and the cover should go back on with no drama.

    And I just noticed something interesting: The 1RQ ram gearing part numbers do start with a "16-" prefix, suggesting that they're from the No. 16, but they aren't the same. For example: the output shaft of the No. 16 and No. 16M is 16-1047 (and you can see how they went across the assembly assigning sequential numbers); on the 1RQ, that shaft is 16-313-B (but it sure looks like the same shaft). I suppose they may have started with part number 16-1000 for the No. 16 and went up from there, leaving the 3-digit suffix part numbers available, and then went back and assigned 16-313 to the 1RQ at a later date. Who knows?

    Cal

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Vermont, USA
    Posts
    456
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    6
    Likes (Received)
    112

    Default

    Many thanks Cal. The $9.00 special ebay smartphone borescope was ordered yesterday and may arrive as soon as Friday or Saturday.

    Regarding putting it back together with gears and shifters in proper orientation, I noticed that VN kindly specifies in the 1R3 manual's parts diagrams what shifter settings and related gear orientations are depicted in the manual, so that thankfully looks like it'll be the least of my concerns or frustrations.

    Assuming that I am in for some bearing replacements, how do you appropriately determine and then measure and adjust the preloads of the geartrain shafts? I realize that it is done with shims, and maybe even that there may be semi-standard preloads for a particular bearing type in a particular service (although I do not yet know where I'd look for that) but with these bolt-in bearing support plugs & shims, I am unclear how I would measure/set preload, other than that I need to be tighter than detectably sloppy and looser than detectably bind-ing?

    Thanks for the continuing encouragement and support. My 'oh _____, I'm ____ed' when I first encountered the loose bearing roller has been replaced by 'this is going to be interesting, I am learning things, and I will hopefully then know that it's been taken care of and done right' and that's in huge part due to the know-how generously offered here.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    pacific northwest
    Posts
    1,049
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    6
    Likes (Received)
    220

    Default

    There is a good crew here. They helped me out a lot with my VN 12 rebuild. It was worn badly and came with a dead rat in the sump no extra charge.
    Step by step, take photo's along the way, and watch your lifting -these suckers are heavy.
    A very careful examination with a scope would be a good idea- nice to have look at things before diving in.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Vermont, USA
    Posts
    456
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    6
    Likes (Received)
    112

    Default

    Opened the side cover on the cutter head. Seems pretty clear that some dimbulb pumped so much grease into the bearings that the grease migrated into the chamber of the cutter head; the couple of changes of #2 diesel seems to have loosened up and flushed out most of the grease, but even once I have all aspects of the machine up to snuff I think I'll do some early and often changes of the cutter head lube. Thankfully no corrosion or carnage, and hopefully the overkill greasing had no I'll effect, and maybe (compared to hardened old grease or not being greased often enough)) preserved the spindle bearings.

    Would there be any merit to creating grease 'exit ports' with tapped holes (to fill with setscrew plugs when not in use), in the spindle bearings' covers, so that fresh grease can go in without old grease being driven deeper in?

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,660
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    863
    Likes (Received)
    490

    Default

    I would think that any excess grease would migrate out the ends of the spindle instead of pushing past the grease seals. My cutter-head was full of what could only be Oobleck, although admittedly not quite the right color. I assumed that someone had packed the head with grease, instead of oil.

    img_7161.jpg


    Some electric motors with non-sealed bearings have a plug on the opposite side of the bearing to let excess grease out. But I think the best bet is to properly grease the bearings with a high quality synthetic grease (I use Mobilith SHC-100) and then leave them alone. Greases are so much better now than they were in the 40s or even 60s and bearings don't need to be greased all the time. Some factories have taken to plugging the Zerk fittings on bearings, so that well meaning maintenance people won't over grease the bearings.

    It looks like you could take the cutter-head off your 1R-3, remove the rear bearing cover and spindle pre-load ring (14-661-D), then slide the spindle forward so that the front bearing cover could be removed. That would allow you to clean, inspect and properly grease the bearings without fiddling with the ring gear's adjustment. You would have to check the spindle bearing pre-load when you put the pre-load ring back on, but you probably need to do that anyway. The instructions for setting the pre-load are on page 8 of the 1R3 manual.

    Cal

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Vermont, USA
    Posts
    456
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    6
    Likes (Received)
    112

    Default

    Thanks Cal- I like the idea of a total cleanout and then a one-time application of best-quality modern grease (wow, that photo makes me shudder- though it's a testament to what these machines can survive and come back from).

    When you rebuilt your #16, how did you get the preload correct on the bearings within the gearbox - i.e. how did you know what specific preload to aim for, and how did you measure it?

    Thanks

  11. Likes thebencarter liked this post
  12. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    60
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    27
    Likes (Received)
    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kd1yt View Post
    Thanks Cal- I like the idea of a total cleanout and then a one-time application of best-quality modern grease (wow, that photo makes me shudder- though it's a testament to what these machines can survive and come back from).

    When you rebuilt your #16, how did you get the preload correct on the bearings within the gearbox - i.e. how did you know what specific preload to aim for, and how did you measure it?

    Thanks
    I have the same question - with the gears not anchored to the shafts, there's no way I can think of to push the shaft fore and aft, nor a place to put a test indicator on, in order to measure the end play. The best thing I can think of is to spin the shafts by hand and add thin spacers until it starts tightening up, then back off just until it frees up.

  13. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,660
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    863
    Likes (Received)
    490

    Default

    Unfortunately, I haven't gotten back to the machine and it sits there waiting for me to install the new bearings. It's been an embarrassingly long time since I took it apart. Fortunately, I took lots of photos, so I can probably put it back together.

    The gears on the middle shaft don't move, so you could set up an indicator against the largest gear and use a lever or some sort of spring scale to move it back and forth. The input and output shafts can both be accessed from the right side: the input shaft has the input pulley and the output shaft has a knob. I would think that a run-out indicator set against the end of the shaft would do the trick for measuring the movement and you can push/pull the pulley/knob to check the end-play.

    The Engineering section of the Timken bearing handbook has pages of information dealing with fit and pre-load or play. I haven't tried to digest it, but it looks pretty complicated. You might start by asking over in the General forum. I'm sure someone there can give us some guidance on what would be needed for the application and how to proceed.

    Cal

  14. Likes thebencarter liked this post
  15. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    60
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    27
    Likes (Received)
    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    The gears on the middle shaft don't move, so you could set up an indicator against the largest gear and use a lever or some sort of spring scale to move it back and forth. The input and output shafts can both be accessed from the right side: the input shaft has the input pulley and the output shaft has a knob. I would think that a run-out indicator set against the end of the shaft would do the trick for measuring the movement and you can push/pull the pulley/knob to check the end-play.
    Of course, why didn't I think of those. Thanks!

  16. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Vermont, USA
    Posts
    456
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    6
    Likes (Received)
    112

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thebencarter View Post
    Of course, why didn't I think of those. Thanks!
    Thank you- Makes total sense. I'd gotten stuck on the fact that the parts diagrams show the center shaft as splined, and so incorrectly thought that the gears on the center shaft moved; on studying the diagrams more closely, and especially on seeing it with the cover off, I now see that there is s long bushing in the middle of the center shaft so that the gears on that center shaft do not move.

  17. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Vermont, USA
    Posts
    456
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    6
    Likes (Received)
    112

    Default

    I finished up the house project yesterday, and so today I dove deeper into the 1R3. The $9.00 borescope was definitely helpful & worth its price of admission,

    First thing I did was strain all of the drained-out lube and diesel flush through a coarse screen; thankfully, no more metal bits.

    Upon lifting the shifter cover, the overall observable condition inside the gearbox is really excellent. Had I not found the roller in the oil, I would not think to even be concerned about looking for anything amiss. There's a thin, fine layer of dark grime on the bottom surface of the gearcase, but no metal bits.

    Several of the easily observable bearings all looked completely fine as I rotated the shafts, even to the naked eye. The borescope let me take a better look at some of the bearings that were not as easy to see, and also to more closely examine even the bearings that I could see without it. No signs of missing rollers. Upon really close examination with the borescope, it looked like the cage on the bearing nearest the pulley driven by the belt from the motor seemed to run in a more wobbly and less consistent orbit as the rollers were going around. So I removed the pulley and got ready to try to pull that shaft. To pull that shaft completely without the gears dropping unsupported, and to stand a chance of reassembling, I'd need to pull the shifter for that shaft, which rides on two round pin-rails. The pin rails are secured with hex setscrews, and the heads of the pin rails on the outer side of the gear case are behind domed sheetmetal plugs. Drilled the center of the sheetmetal plugs and carefully levered them out. Varnishy buildup seems to be holding the slide pin rails in place pretty securely even after removal of the setscrews and application of some penetrating oil into the setscrews' bores.

    Removed the bearing support/seal plug on the pulley end; it has a series of very fine thin brass shims that seem to have been carefully selected, and look like a factory install. I managed to pull on the shaft to gingerly get the race out, and then to examine the rollers and cage on the cone. All looks really good- no signs of missing rollers or any damage to the cage. Very slight usage wear on the race, but no pitting, dragging, scoring, or anything else. Rollers looked perfect, and no distortion of the cage.

    To get those slide pins out (which I would need to do to go deeper) given the gummy varnish in the slide pins' retaining bores under the dome caps, I think I'd have to drill and tap the ends of the slide pins, thread in a bolt, and then gently tap them out with a slide hammer.

    The only bearing that I cannot get a look at is on the far side of the center shaft; the large diameter of the fixed gear nearest that bearing blocks any view and has so far eluded my getting a look even with the borescope; on the other hand, the clearances near the bearing between that gear and the backwall of the gearbox are limited enough that if something was letting go, it ought to be dragging or jamming or scraping, and that shaft is the smoothest and quietest of all 3 shafts.

    The visible patterns in the ends of the rollers that I can see (which have a round divot on the visible end) are distinct/different from the pattern on the mystery roller that was in the oil- which has a diamond-shaped divot in the end.

    I could dig in deeper but based on observations of no detectable problems and the fact that I have less equipment and skill to reassemble with the same full precision that was done originally, I'm leaning towards thinking that I'd be wisest to put it back together, and before replacing the top cover and shifters, put about a 1/2" of kerosene in the bottom of the sump, and gently brush loose that fine dark layer with a foam paintbrush and without spattering it into the gears or bearings, and then drain, and then rinse again with some more clean kero, and drain again.

    Given the extraordinarily foul look and stench of the lube that was in there, and what a contrast the foul lube was with the observed seemingly excellent condition of the gears and bearings, I am literally left wondering if some knucklehead poured used axle oil into the thing at some point, and maybe the mystery roller was in the used oil that got poured in. I have no way to prove or disprove that theory, but it is the only thing that is coming to mind that would seem to reconcile the awful lube containing the bearing roller, and the excellent observed condition inside the gearbox.

    I did take some photos with the borescope, but I am not sure they are even worth posting; the resolution of the borescope is pretty decent, but with me hand-holding it by its non-rigid cable, the images are well beneath high quality. The 'scope was very useful to get a much closer, more precise look than I could manage with my bifocals...

    Appreciate any and all thoughts and suggestions from others.

    I definitely plan to open up the bearings on the cutterhead and give them a thorough soak and clean, and put some top-grade synthetic grease in those before reassembling, but I think I am going to focus on wrapping up the main gearbox before I turn to that.

  18. Likes Cal Haines liked this post
  19. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,660
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    863
    Likes (Received)
    490

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kd1yt View Post
    ... So I removed the pulley and got ready to try to pull that shaft. To pull that shaft completely without the gears dropping unsupported, and to stand a chance of reassembling, I'd need to pull the shifter for that shaft, which rides on two round pin-rails. The pin rails are secured with hex setscrews, and the heads of the pin rails on the outer side of the gear case are behind domed sheetmetal plugs. Drilled the center of the sheetmetal plugs and carefully levered them out. Varnishy buildup seems to be holding the slide pin rails in place pretty securely even after removal of the setscrews and application of some penetrating oil into the setscrews' bores.
    ...
    To get those slide pins out (which I would need to do to go deeper) given the gummy varnish in the slide pins' retaining bores under the dome caps, I think I'd have to drill and tap the ends of the slide pins, thread in a bolt, and then gently tap them out with a slide hammer.
    ...
    It sounds like you've done your due diligence. The only thing I think you missed was to not check the end-play of the shaft before pulling the bearing retainer. I would suggest checking the other two shafts now, even it you don't plan to remove them.

    What make/model borescope did you get and what's its resolution?

    On my No. 16, I removed the domed sheet metal plugs by taping the shafts sideways until the caps popped off. I used a pair of Vise Grip No. 7LW pliers to grip the shaft. Even though the shafts had a lot of corrosion, I was able to remove them without marking them (unlike the last guy that was in there):
    img_7131.jpg


    The shims you describe sound like the same sort that were in my No. 16. Some of them had been laminated together by spots of solder around the edges, so that you could peel off shims to reduce the thickness of the stack.

    img_7213.jpg


    Please take lots of pictures as you go along and post them here. The next guy will thank you.

    Cal


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •