Van Norman 22L How to remove collet holder?
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  1. #1
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    Default Van Norman 22L How to remove collet holder?

    Just brought home a VN 22L
    It's got a VN2 (50V) collet holder.
    How do I get that out to get to the B&S#13 taper spindle?
    I've given it a couple half hearted whacks with a delrin bar,
    then a couple of taps with a mild steel bar.
    Decided I'd better ask before I go messing anything up.
    Am I correct in assuming there's a B&S#13 taper spindle holding the collet adapter?
    Thanks!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails p1080321.jpg   p1080310.jpg   p1080308.jpg  
    Last edited by JRock1000; 03-02-2019 at 08:47 AM. Reason: Added photos

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    What makes you thinking that your spindle is B&S 13 and not VN2?
    The 22L was produced with three types of spindle: VN2, B&S 13 and NMTB 50.

    Where are you hitting with the bar?

    Paolo

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    The collet holder is driven by the drive dogs on the spindle nose.
    It's a different piece of steel than the spindle.
    There's a ledge a couple inches up from the face of the spindle nose.
    That's where I sat the rod.

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    I've read a bunch of your posts
    First while I was trying to figure out how to move it, then yesterday again, while I was trying to figure out the spindle.
    I'm pretty sure the collet holder will be hardened, so the delrin or the mild steel isn't gonna hurt anything (so long as I don't beat on it like an animal)

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    Added some photos to the OP.
    The collet holder and the spindle nose are definitely 2 separate pieces.
    Should I just commit, and hit it hard? Should I build a puller?
    Is there something holding it in besides Friction (the B&S#13 taper, and crust)?
    That's really what I want to double check with the voices of experience, that there's nothing else holding it in place besides the taper.

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    Had the same experience with the 22L at the museum many moons ago. In the end, I just left it alone and used my VN2 tooling before I screwed up the spindle taper. I had been given two pieces of B&S tooling (boring head and something else) and wanted to try to use them. It's been a long time ago, but I think I just made VN2 shanks for the tooling and took them off the B&S shanks.

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    I'm thinking I'll make a little puller for it. I tried (gently) tapping in aluminum wedges, between the drive ears and the spindle nose. There's more room between them now than before, but I really don't want to beat on the spindle, especially perpendicular to the axis. I think it's mostly just crust holding it in there. You can see it on the first photo in the OP.

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    Maybe this was so obvious that no one wanted to mention it, but look at the rear end of your spindle head and see if there's a drawbar holding the collet adapter in place.

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    I should have specified that I removed the drawbar.
    The collet's out too.
    Is there a secret drawbar for the Collet Adapter?

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    So the powerfeeds don't work (
    The splined drive shaft, coming up from the base, is spinning, but the gear that comes through to the knee (perpendicularly) sort of rattles and doesn't spin. My first step is to adjust the clutch, but I can't figure out how to adjust it from the picture on the plate or the manual.
    Any experience with adjusting the clutch on a VN22? Seems like it's gotta be simple, I'm just a little simpler

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    Alright, Figured out how to adjust the clutch.
    The pin was turned around so I couldn't see it.
    I had to turn the clutch assembly and shaft to see it.
    Didn't fix the powerfeed, but that's step 1 of troubleshooting.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails p1080374.jpg   p1080376.jpg  

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    Clearly, you're right and you have an adapter in the spindle. I would take Mike's suggestion and live with it: unless you have a stash of B&S 13 tooling, you're much better off with a VN-2 spindle, in terms of abundance of tooling. Our VN 2 at Tuckahoe has a B&S spindle and came to us with a full length adapter for VN-S collets. the pictures that you've posted make me suspecting that a previous owner has made that adapter intended as a permanent modification. Perhaps, installing it with some Loctite.
    If you insist in your attempts of removing it, I would first start by dripping some Kroil or equivalent penetrating rust remover and let it act for a few days.
    If that were to fail, the second alternative would be to apply some heat in the attempt of breaking the bonds of Loctite. But that would require you to remove the spindle first.

    No much help for the feeds. I should mess around with mine, but I don't have time right now.

    Paolo

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    Got some Kroil in there
    All my tooling is 40 taper. I figure I can make a B&S13 - 40 Taper adapter.
    Not much left on the edges at the bottom, but if it's all getting pulled up by the drawbar...
    That would save me having to tool it up from scratch, as well as exponentially increase the salability.

    In the meantime, I think I've narrowed down why the powerfeed won't engage.
    The bevel gear and shaft that connects to the feed drive are slopping around in the hole between the Clutch Compartment and the Feed drive compartment, so the shaft pivots instead of holding the bevel gear to the feed drive securely.
    My guess is the bearing pushed out or something (I can't imagine the hole wallered out...).
    I can't figure out how to get to the feed drive compartment though.
    Hopefully it's as "easy" as going through the leftside panel (the HNL compartment).

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    Yes, it's probably got a B&S 13 taper spindle. You said that you removed the drawbar, right? Was it threaded into the taper adapter?

    I doubt that it was installed with Loc-tite. There's no need for that with such a steep taper, plus the No. 2 collets are held in place with a drawbar, so there's no chance of it coming loose in service.

    B&S 13 is a pretty steep taper and really locks in, especially if there was a bit of corrosion that took place over time. I haven't had any luck removing steep tapers by tapping on the back with a drift. I think your best bet is a puller. I would make a puller that has a solid back surface that you can tap on. Make sure that you load the Kroil in so that it can pool at the back of the adapter. Maybe tilt the head down a few degrees. Rotate the spindle from time to time so that the Kroil gets all the way around. Put your puller in there, tighten it up (I would torque whatever bolt you use to the recommended value), then walk away. Come back in 24 hours, give the thing a few good raps on the back, check the torque on the bolt, repeat. It may take it a few days or even weeks for the puller/Kroil/raps to do the work, but it should let go eventually.

    Cal

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    yeah, removed the drawbar. It was threaded on to the collet.
    I've got some kroil soaking in there.
    The machine is pretty crusty. Still tight though.
    That's why it's such a surprise the Powerfeed isn't working. Oh Well.
    First priority is getting that up and running. I'll be chipping away at the tonight (and probably the next few).

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    The sharp impact of a slide hammer is better than a steady pull. A puller used along with a couple Jacob chuck wedges is a good combination. I dont like much perpendicular impact either. Straight impact along with a puller as Cal Haynes suggests works.
    Sharp blows with good contact.
    Make a longer bar with the drawbar thread on one end and weld a stop on the bar so you can slide a weight down the bar and impact the stop. A 3 to five pound hammer head makes a good slide weight.
    Make sure nothing else is holding it.

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    I missed something. You are trying fo remove the collet holder and not the collet.
    My bad. The title should have bit me.

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    Could set up a tool post and maybe even the cross slide from your lathe to better match the taper if you don’t want to step bore it and slowly work at boring the adopter out of the spindle. Might pop free once some pressure is relieved.

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    Damn, I missed these last 3 posts.
    Cal and mllud22, you were both right.
    I set up a puller, and dripped Kroil, tightened the bolt, tapped every now and again (I hate tapping on the spindle though).
    Took 3 - 4 days!
    p1080566.jpg
    Today I put the wrench handle in the vise, and switched the on, then off switch a few times.
    Stripped the Nut! (on the wrench side, that 5/8-11 thread didn't budge).
    Finally gave it 1 good whack and it popped out
    p1080567.jpg
    B&S#13 Looks like it's 2" at the widest part, which leaves me >.100" for the perimeter to bore an adapter for 40 taper

    That Collet adapter is CRUSTY, but the Spindle is pristine.
    p1080576.jpg

    Thanks!

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    Good job getting it out. Mine has been stuck for some time, even with a similar puller setup. I need to try again, then I may bring just the head to another shop with an enerpac or large press.

    I have some B&S 13 tooling, but it has been very difficult to find more. I could really use some horizontal arbors with different sizes. The original tooling other than the VN2 adapter had a threaded nose to use as a release mechanism. The collet adapter did not sacrafice the spindle length, but tends to get impossibly stuck.

    40 taper is quite big to fit inside the spindle. I had plans to make a 30 taper adapter to include the drive keys, and other various adapters, but never finished. 40 taper would probably need to stick out further to fit drive keys.

    Regards,
    Jacob

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