Van Norman 26 w/riser?

Hi all,

I bought a Van Norman 26 mill at auction this week, and will be moving it at the start of next week. After going to inspect it and comparing to the manual, I have a couple of questions..

- it looks like there is an ~8" riser block between the column and the ram. Would that be a factory option and, if yes, does that make the model a "special" 26? The brochure mentions the special, but I'm not sure the differences between them

- are there other differences between the standard and special 26's? Mine does not appear to have a universal table

- the manual-recommended way of lifting is with a 2" rope around the back of the ram, and another around the front of the knee. The front of the knee is a somewhat rounded shape, and looks like it might be prone to the rope slipping. Is there something else I'm missing? Maybe the two loops need to be tied together to prevent slippage off the front?

- lastly, space is an issue in my wee shop. I'm thinking I can probably sell my Hardinge TM horizontal as the horizontal mode of the VN makes it a little redundant now :-P can anyone think of a reason to keep the Hardinge? (Other than because it's cool - I'm having a hard enough time with the thought of letting it go...)

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Pictures from the manual:



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Nice looking machine! For lifting you will want to use heavy straps, not rope, go under the knee, but behind the knee lifting screw, or at least that is how I did it on my VN.

Thanks! Yes, it's definitely a step up for me

I hired a rigger to move it for me - I'm sure they'll be using rated straps rather than rope but I absolutely forgot to mention that! Just looking to avoid any mishaps

Behind the elevating screw is how I've done it with lighter machines in the past, but the instructions in the VN literature specify the front of the knee - at least that's how I'm reading it? (see attached pic).





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Riggers moved my #28A with forks under the ram, some thin plywood between the forks and the ram for friction and to prevent dinging.

If you do run straps/ropes around the front of the knee, route them behind the table. Will certainly not slip off the knee then.

As far as "special 26", there could have been a variety of factory-specials. The presence of the riser would not (AFAIK) define this machine as "the special 26". We've seen here on PM a #28 with a non-catalog extra long table, for example, and it would not surprise me if there were some custom spindle tapers.

leeko said:

I'm thinking I can probably sell my Hardinge TM horizontal as the horizontal mode of the VN makes it a little redundant now :-P can anyone think of a reason to keep the Hardinge? (Other than because it's cool - I'm having a hard enough time with the thought of letting it go...)

Click to expand...

Reasons?

A) How much horizontal tooling and workholding do you have for each?

B) You can sometimes set up and complete SMALL work on the TM in less time than you can reconfigure the VN and apply its larger-tee-slot clamping goods.

C) The TM doesn't need much space in-use and even less when not. My Burke #4 is set up for roll away, go hide in the corner. I don't rate it "redundant" vs the Quartet's horizontal spindle. Just no longer as essential. Luxury of choice, IOW.

It's the 12" shaper I might consider shedding for space, here. Given the Quartet has a 48" table...and a heavy K&T slotter with 7+ inch stroke.

It is undoubtedly a factory riser. I think VN would pretty much build anything you wanted, as their output appears to have been very low compared to other companies. They were basically hand building, so customizing a machine was not a big deal. There's not even an option of a metric screw 1R-3-22 in their catalog, but I have one. They also don't list a 2RQ-3-28, but I have that one, too.

As for rigging, I'd go with the forklift under the ram, if possible. That's how we loaded my 2RQ-3-28. DON'T use the overarm for anything but a balance rig for a couple hundred pounds, max.

Have to agree with thermite on the horizontal. With the 8" riser, this 26 is going to be pretty useless as a horizontal unless you are working on tall stuff or can block up your work. A VN barely can get the table to the center of the spindle, add an 8" riser and you are going to be working 8" below spindle center.

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. The brochure for the 26 lists the centerline of the spindle to the table minimum distance as 0" for the regular, and 7" for the special. I guess that does make mine a special. it'll be fun figuring out if there are other differences :-)

I hadn't considered how difficult that will make the horizontal mode.... I guess that explains why the overarm supports and outboard brace looked like they've not been used in a loooooong time :-)

Lee

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leeko said:

I hadn't considered how difficult that will make the horizontal mode.... I guess that explains why the overarm supports and outboard brace looked like they've not been used in a loooooong time :-)

Click to expand...

THIS.. is part of why most combo/flexible "manual" mills had really low market share. "Niche" goods.

Even in TIGHT space, faster and easier to put a second machine alongside, each of them a one-trick pony, but good at that "trick".

By end of year-ONE, the saving in wasted config and setup at high skilled labour + full "burden" had paid for the second mill.

Take the "Quartet".

Horizontal peeks out one end of the turret, the end of the dovetail ram is also the over-arm. Vertical head is on the other end of the same massive dovetail ram, its motor in the middle.

Changeover? No heavy head to manipulate atall.

Pop the big tram-lock taper-pin, start cranking the worm-wheel handle, rotate turret 180 degrees, drop the tram pin back into engagement.

Downsides?

- Oh. Yeah. Not-so-minor detail.. There are also eight heavy fasteners to loosen and tighten. Four front. Four back.

- It requires a 9-foot diameter full circle of clear space to swing, and also "clear" enough to get a tool onto those eight lock-downs.

Suits ME fine as a retiree/hobbyist.

Busy "revenue" shop? No so much.

At least a VN dasn't need "space to swing"!

I think that the closer the front strap is to the front of the column, the better off you are. Use the front strap to do the primary lifting and the strap under the ram for balance.

"Even in TIGHT space, faster and easier to put a second machine alongside, each of them a one-trick pony, but good at that "trick"."

Maybe in a production setting where it is more desirable to keep a machine set up for repetition, but not at all true for quick one off jobs, especially if space is limited. I timed myself converting the 22L at the museum from vertical to horizontal. Including removing and stashing the collet and endmill, swivelling the head, taking the horizontal arbor out of the drawer, mounting, installing a cutter, setting the reach on the ram and setting up the outboard support and even outboard bracket, it was less than 5 minutes. Unless the horizontal mill already had the desired cutter on the arbor and set at the proper reach (because adjusting reach on any other horizontal requires moving spacers on the arbor, versus adjusting ram position on the VN), the Van Norman is only a matter of seconds slower to convert, versus changing machines. Also, no need to mount a vise or zero the part back in, if you are working on a single piece. Part of learning to think the Van Norman way. You move the machine, not the part.

Mike C. said:

Part of learning to think the Van Norman way. You move the machine, not the part.

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Deckels - and the Swedish mills - want their own mind-set as well.

Bridgeport, (and workalikes..), rotate 90 degrees => K&T/B&S/Cincinnati sold far more mills.

"Quartet", OTOH, added complexity in weird ways to a B&S or Rambaudi approach, didn't sell SQUAT AFAICS.

Yup, big sacrifice on the Bridgeport is lack of true horizontal mode. It does allow more reach, but then you also had the Fray that would do anything a Bridgeport could dream of, had a few other tricks up its sleeve, and still had a true horizontal spindle in the column. Have also seen the K&T and Cincys with the toolmakers arm and a hefty horizontal spindle. Looked at a Cincy the guy that had my L&S lathe was selling, but the horizontal spindle gearbox was blown up.

Biggest reason for the popularity of the Bridgeport is that nobody has learned to run anything else since the 70s. That's what the schools taught the basics on and if you got a job where they had a big Cincy or something, you took those basics and along with the guys you worked with, learned how to run them. Most folks now can't even calculate a chipload and corresponding feed rate. They have no reason to, the Bridgeport is going to stall out, break and endmill, or start chattering if they feed it too hard. A real live gearhead mill will destroy itself before it will give up. I started with a VN6, so I became very aware of how much more rigid it was than the Bridgeport type. Next was the VN22L, which introduced me to three axis powerfeed with rapids. That's when I realized how badly folks had been duped with the Bridgeport type.

Mike C. said:

I started with a VN6, so I became very aware of how much more rigid it was than the Bridgeport type. Next was the VN22L, which introduced me to three axis powerfeed with rapids. That's when I realized how badly folks had been duped with the Bridgeport type.

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I'd not say "duped". First two years were on a B&S former-line-shaft or "the Milwaukee", a SLIGHTLY newer K&T. We had an M-head and what would later be called a "J1" over at the "clean edge" of the work area. No dark sulfurized cutting oil for THOSE queens!

OTOH, we made TOOLING and fixtures on the horizontals. All the verticals were asked to do was open-up a Danly die-set now and then. Most of the time, they were used as makeshift jig-bores.

Hearing aids. Small parts. Bridgeport was actually OVERKILL for stuff that small. Next job, a Cinncy Toolsmaster the small vertical. We had a row of hor-bores, too.

Toolmaster was not bad, but I didn't touch it if the work could be done in the big K&T adjacent to it. On account of my tender age, Foreman was at first surprised. Then he watched me set up and just went away smiling!

An old Swabian Master had spoiled me with those horizontals I guess!

Congrats on your purchase. I was actually watching that one, but it was a bit too far for me to go and get it. I hope you enjoy that new machine.

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Thanks Michael

I was working on it some today. The knee sight glass didn't show any oil. I drained it, and there was less than a gallon in there... The manual says the knee capacity is 16 quarts

I hope they didn't run it much like that... I refilled the knee, and it took about 2 gallons-ish to bring the oil level to halfway up the sight glass.

But... I switched the machine on, and the sight glass doesn't show any flow. The manual says that's a Very Bad Thing, and recommends I inspect the knee pump. I'm not sure exactly where that is, but I'm guessing I need to drain the knee again before I remove the pump?

If any Van Norman owners can offer any insight, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Thanks,

Lee

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leeko said:

Pictures from the manual:

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Click to expand...

leeko said:

Thanks! Yes, it's definitely a step up for me

I hired a rigger to move it for me - I'm sure they'll be using rated straps rather than rope but I absolutely forgot to mention that! Just looking to avoid any mishaps

Behind the elevating screw is how I've done it with lighter machines in the past, but the instructions in the VN literature specify the front of the knee - at least that's how I'm reading it? (see attached pic).

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Click to expand...

You neglected to read where it says to have ram extending back 4 or 5 inches behind column? See the other image from your manual (top pic in this post) that shows ram extending behind the ram. That is how the rear sling is kept from sliding up the back.

Congrats on a nice looking machine!

Cal is probably better versed in this than me, but yes, I am almost positive you have to drain it again to swap that pump out. I am not sure if you can get parts for it, but I am almost positive they can be made. If it's like all the pumps I've repaired in the Navy and outside the Navy, then usually the wear ring is what needs replaced and some seals. In most cases in the Navy, with some of the archaic pumps we use, the rotor, impellers, or screws can't be bought and with just a wear ring, the pump can get 80% or greater capacity. I hope this helps.

I seriously like that riser block and have made a mental note of that as I am designing some upgrades for my 16.

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Ok, I made some progress last night. The manual says that if there's a problem with the pump, it's usually crud in the lines or a failure of the plunger spring. It recommends pulling the inlet/outlet check valves to check them first.

I did that last night. The valves were screwed in using those daft jumbo slotted screws, which were glued in place with old congealed pipe tape. Combined with the awkward angle on the underside of the knee, it took me about 4 hours and a homade giant screwdriver to free them up....

Here's what came out. On the inlet side, the plunger spring was indeed broken into 5 pieces. Hopefully that the only problem.. on the outlet side, all that came out was a ball bearing and a smaller spring. I can't tell from the parts diagram if there are other removable parts in that side. I can see/feel a moveable sleeve or member in the opening, but it stops about 1/4" from the opening and doesn't seem inclined to come out.

So.... I plan to source and replace the plunger spring and put things back together. Hopefully the spring is the only problem with the pump, as I don't think the rest of the pump can be easily removed without a significant disassembly of the knee. I had removed the 4 socket head cap screws, but the main pump assembly didn't budge and I'm guessing it's held in place by the linkages and/or line connections at the top end.

The main question I have is regarding the outlet side - should I be trying harder to remove and clean more parts from that side? Or just replace what came out? I haven't been inside a pump before, so any guidance is much appreciated!

Thanks,

Lee

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If worst case scenario, it is not that hard to make a spring. I've done more than a few.

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