Van Norman collets

CTP · Jan 5, 2011

I have been watching the Ebay ads and see that someone is offering original VN C collets. I am wondering why someone would pay more for fewer colllets than the new 5V ones offered by Tools 4 Cheap? Are the new collets just as good as original?

stoneaxe · Jan 5, 2011

The ones I bought new seem pretty good- are they as good as a original new condition VN?- maybe not , like a lot on Chinese stuff, the non working surfaces (like the interior of the bore ,past where the tool does engages, are a bit rough ) But if they hold the tool securely and concentic, what more do you need? I have checked a few of the new end mill holders for runout on the outside surface and they are at least as good as the spindle- .0005 or less.
full disclosure, I have not yet powered up the VN and run these collets.

reggie_obe · Jan 5, 2011

On the EMH's, are you saying you checked for runout in the spindle with an endmill mounted in them or checked by sweping the empty bore?

stoneaxe · Jan 5, 2011

Nope- swept the OD, wanted to make sure it was running true so I could stick a DTI on it and sweep the table for square.

I have not yet stuck a tool in the bore to check for concentricity.

Mike C. · Jan 5, 2011

It actually matters not if the spindle is running true for tramming the table, as long as it isn't running out at an angle. That's the beauty of operating off a radius, same reason a boring head makes a perfectly round hole.

On your endmill holders. You'll find compared to collets, they will have a fair amount of runout. To have enough clearnace to get the endmill in the holder, it will push to one side when you tighten the setscrew. Discovered that when trying to sharpen edmills in a Weldon type air bearing fixture on my T&C grinder. Flutes kept coming out a little off, so I put a tenths indicator on the endmill in the fixture and it whirled around. Was pushing about .0007 off to one side (.0015 total runout). Was an eye opener for me. I'll use an endmill holder for roughing with big endmills, but for accurate work, I use collets.

stoneaxe · Jan 5, 2011

Yes, that is what I was checking- top and bottom of the holder to see if it was bent/out of square.

Cal Haines · Jan 5, 2011

reggie_obe said:
On the EMH's, are you saying you checked for runout ...

I see a question about collets and a question about end mill holders, both of which are available from tools4cheap.net ...

stoneax, were you commenting on the collets, the end mill holders, or both?

CTP, one reason that folks might buy original Van Norman "C" collets (or the Hardinge version, 5V) is that they are available in increments of 1/64". The tools4cheap collets are only available as a set by 16ths. Also, the last time I checked, a NEW Hardinge 5V collet was about $120; that makes $20 for a used one on eBay look like a real bargain!

Cal

Mike C. · Jan 5, 2011

I have never understood the 64th collet set thing. I can get about any endmill diameter and length I desire with a 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8 or 3/4" shank. For drills and reamers, I use a Jacob's chuck. You cna save a bit of precious room under the spindle with a drill in a collet versus a chuck, but other than that, I see no need to have every single collet in the set.

stoneaxe · Jan 5, 2011

Cal Haines said:
I see a question about collets and a question about end mill holders, both of which are available from tools4cheap.net ...

stoneax, were you commenting on the collets, the end mill holders, or both?

Both, I bought a set of collets and end and shell milll holders. The quality seems pretty good, no test yet though.

Mike, your comment about "precious space" below the spindle rings true- I can see a lot of times a collet would be more useful than an end mill holder to save an 1 1/2" or so. Particularly with the big 1" plus end mill holders- seems they might be most useful doing horizontal work. And a vise or rotary table could use up the space quick- have you ever tried those two piece vises that bolt right to the table?

Mike C. · Jan 5, 2011

I have a big two piece vise for my radial drill and bridge mill. I think most of those two pieces would be far too large to fit the VN12 table. Also, if you get them bolted down solid, you can actually bend a table with them (think about that, you are using the table to restrain the vise halves from pushing apart, so it bends the table downward at the ends). On something as massive as my radial drill table (probably 4" thick) or the bridge mill (3" thick), it's not much problem, but the 12 table is about 1/8 the mass of that radial drill table. The 2pc also does not hold as hard as a regular mill vise. You just can't get as much force with it as you can with a vice because the halves will slip on the table. It holds well enough for the machines I use it with, but I'd be scared of it on the big Cincy #3 vertical at work. Something would wind up airborne.

I have a smaller 4" milling vise that lives on the 12. If it gets too big for that, I just use the clamp kit and nail it to the table.

abarnsley · Jan 5, 2011

GOOD/BEST quality EM holders, are ground slightly off center, to allow for setscrew pressure and clearance.

I doubt ANY Chinese export ones are properly made...

A GOOD EM Holder will out grip a collet. A hardened EM shank against a hardened collet slips pretty easy...

Worn holders/collets, throw everything off of course.

Mike C. · Jan 5, 2011

Never had an endmill slip in a VN 6 or 12. Just not enough brute power to slip one, if it is properly installed and tightened in a collet that is not screwed. Have broken endmills in a VN, but never slipped one. The collets I have used in both the #6 that was at the museum and the few I have for the 12 at home are VN collets. The ones at the museum were still in the plastic tube.

Rarely do you have to really gouge anything with an endmill in a small VN, though.... that's what horizontal arbors are for.

The offset grind in the holders I have measured are close, but still not as good as a collet.

CTP · Jan 5, 2011

Thanks. I'm getting the picture. I went ahead and ordered the end mill holders from Tools for Cheap andwill get the collets next.

Cal Haines · Jan 6, 2011

Mike C. said:
I have never understood the 64th collet set thing. ... I see no need to have every single collet in the set.

They're handy for holding odd sized pieces in the "C" spindle dividing heads.

Cal

Andy FitzGibbon · Jan 6, 2011

Mike C. said:
I have never understood the 64th collet set thing. I can get about any endmill diameter and length I desire with a 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8 or 3/4" shank. For drills and reamers, I use a Jacob's chuck. You cna save a bit of precious room under the spindle with a drill in a collet versus a chuck, but other than that, I see no need to have every single collet in the set.

Some Van Norman dividing heads have C spindles. The 32nd and 64th collets could be quite handy in a dividing head.

Mike C. · Jan 6, 2011

That makes sense. Had not taken the dividing head into account.

steelz · Jan 7, 2011

CTP said:
I have been watching the Ebay ads and see that someone is offering original VN C collets. I am wondering why someone would pay more for fewer colllets than the new 5V ones offered by Tools 4 Cheap? Are the new collets just as good as original?

The ones on eBay ave been posted for awhile. I'll stick with Tool4Cheap since he's supporting the machine. Maybe he'll come out with an overarm support next and make everyone happy :willy_nilly:

stoneaxe · Jan 7, 2011

help a newbie here- why would one want to hold such a small part in the dividing head? can you give an example? Thanks!

Mike C. · Jan 8, 2011

Small gears, splines, etc...

imaginationiskey · Jun 15, 2019

I have a Van Norman No.6 and it came with one collet. I purchased a Hardinge 5v collet and it was too large. Can someone point me in the correct direction?

These pics above show the van norman collet , the pics below show the Hardinge 5v

Van Norman collets

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