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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohio Mike View Post
    As far as I know all the 22's and 16's had dovetail ways and the round overarm. However the 24L had a round overarm, where as the 24M had the dovetail configuration. Machines designed later had the box ways and dovetail overarm configuration.
    I just saw a photo of a #26 with half-dovetail ways on the knee (and dovetail overarm).

    It would be interesting to read a history (doubt one exists, though) of the VN engineering department. There are some parts they left unchanged for over a decade, across multiple major redesigns, and other features they flip-flopped on back and forth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uglydog View Post
    My VN swivel dividing head and tailstock are each marked serial# 2-6038.
    Does this suggest they "came off (or at least were intended for) a model" 22?
    I don't want to lean too hard on the coincidence, but 6038 was a serial number for a #22 made in 1943. So it's possible. It's also possible the dividing head and tailstock were made freestanding, independent of any particular mill order. If that dividing head is really old, it might have gone with a #2 Duplex, which would be sometime between 1890 and 1935. Nobody I've heard of has a list of serial numbers for the Duplex mills.

    By the way, do you have the 10" vertical swivel dividing head, 10" horizontal swivel dividing head, or the 7.5" horizontal swivel dividing head? The last of those would have gone with one of the smaller/earlier machines. The 10" horizontal might have been delivered for either small/early or large/late machines and came in two different bore tapers. Both of the horizontal swivel dividing heads would look rather "odd" to most people. The vertical swivel dividing head looks totally conventional, and it's quite beefy with an NMTB50 bore taper and a 1.5" through bore. Intended for the large/late machines only.

    I haven't seen a listing of VN accessory serial numbers.
    Nor have I. For the paltry number of things like arbor supports that I've had my hands on, they just have the four-digit part of the mill serial number without the model number. Sort of makes sense because they always shipped with a particular mill. For head attachments, I'm really quite ignorant about the possible serial numberings VN used. This lode of attachments that Randy came across is the largest collection I've seen pictured or described outside of the VN attachment/accessory catalog.

  3. #23
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    I've got the 10inch vertical swivel dividing head, tailstock, the 4index plates, and most of the gears (no gearbox). For all of her cosmetic woes, she is in great condition. I picked her up at a local machine auction, when we decided to pick up a VN22LU this past weekend March 7th. I have some assembly/repairs to do.

    I'd like to bid on some of Randys VN accessories. However, I on the front end of the learning curve, likely many of you could better use these accessories than I can. Or at least put them into service when you receive them.....

    Meanwhile, I'll likely be asking you for input on recreating a gearbox when the VN22LU is finally operational.

    Daryl
    MN

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uglydog View Post
    I've got the 10inch vertical swivel dividing head, tailstock, the 4index plates, and most of the gears (no gearbox). For all of her cosmetic woes, she is in great condition. I picked her up at a local machine auction, when we decided to pick up a VN22LU this past weekend March 7th. I have some assembly/repairs to do.
    ...
    Meanwhile, I'll likely be asking you for input on recreating a gearbox when the VN22LU is finally operational.
    ...
    A plate with slots, like the one used for the 10" horizontal dividing head, may be all that you need. I've got one here somewhere that fit's my No. 16U.

    Cal

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    A plate with slots, like the one used for the 10" horizontal dividing head, may be all that you need. I've got one here somewhere that fit's my No. 16U.

    Cal
    Cal,
    What do you mean a plate with slots in it? Do you mean some hot rolled steel with strategic slots and holes to accommodate the various gear shafts? And would ultimately hang off the end of the end of the table? That's what I was hoping might work. I wonder how similar the 16U and 22LU are? Near as I can tell from the literature there is only one gearbox. Since you have a plate already functional, I'm wondering how I might best copy it. Suggestions? Perhaps you would you be willing to trace it, with notes on any modifications that you might make. Please identify what costs I my incur for this help. I haven't seen a print addressing this on the VN Yahoo group or other places.

    Thank you,
    Daryl
    MN

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    I think that some of the dividing heads come with a banjo to mount the gears on.
    IIRC the list price for the enclosed box to hold the gears was $430 in 1966 dollars. I have the box (but no gears) and can take some photos of the interior plate if you would want them.

    Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by Uglydog View Post
    Cal,
    What do you mean a plate with slots in it? Do you mean some hot rolled steel with strategic slots and holes to accommodate the various gear shafts? And would ultimately hang off the end of the end of the table? That's what I was hoping might work. I wonder how similar the 16U and 22LU are? Near as I can tell from the literature there is only one gearbox. Since you have a plate already functional, I'm wondering how I might best copy it. Suggestions? Perhaps you would you be willing to trace it, with notes on any modifications that you might make. Please identify what costs I my incur for this help. I haven't seen a print addressing this on the VN Yahoo group or other places.

    Thank you,
    Daryl
    MN

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uglydog View Post
    Cal,
    What do you mean a plate with slots in it? Do you mean some hot rolled steel with strategic slots and holes to accommodate the various gear shafts? And would ultimately hang off the end of the end of the table? That's what I was hoping might work. I wonder how similar the 16U and 22LU are? Near as I can tell from the literature there is only one gearbox. Since you have a plate already functional, I'm wondering how I might best copy it. ...
    Hi Daryl,

    If you look in this copy of the Attachments, Arbors and Accessories catalog, on page number 3 (the page for the 10" horizontal dividing head):
    http://www.machinistweb.com/manuals/...ccessories.pdf
    you can see the plate in front of the head.

    Here's the image:


    Here's one set up:


    Here's the thread where I found the above images. It discusses making a banjo.
    help with Van Norman [Archive] - The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop Magazine's BBS

    I got one of the plates on eBay years back, along with a 10" horizontal dividing head, and I stuck it on the machine one time, just for giggles. Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures and I'm fuzzy about how it works. IIRC, here's how it goes: There should be a knurled sleeve covering the end of the input shaft on the dividing head. You take the sleeve off and the banjo clamps to the boss around the shaft. One gear goes on the dividing head input shaft. The table's left hand-wheel comes off and a second gear goes on in its place. You can stack up various gear combinations, including an idler gear, to get the right ratio. The above illustration appears to use 4 gears, two of which are stacked on the same stub shaft.

    The dividing head that came with my banjo plate was a Van Norman number 2 taper, so it's the version for a No. 22 or larger machine, but the plate lined up just fine on my No. 16. I'm pretty sure that the banjo is the same for No. 6 through No. 36. However, I don't know for sure that it would work with a 10" vertical head.

    My plate is buried way back in the corner and I don't have time right now to try to find it. Let's see what Mike has first.

    This guy also has a boring and drilling attachment; that's the first one that I recall seeing in the wild:



    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfriedberg View Post
    I just saw a photo of a #26 with half-dovetail ways on the knee (and dovetail overarm).
    I think that photo must have been mislabled, as I've just looked at a bunch of other #26 photos and they all have box ways. So never mind...

  10. #29
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    Reeltor,
    Some photos would be great.
    If you can inclue a rule in the pic that would be very helpful.
    Would you like to sell the gear box?
    While I'm all for making it work, a complete restoration would be ideal!

    Daryl
    MN

  11. #30
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    Cal,
    Yep, my laptop about shorted out on account of the copious drool on the keyboard.
    I've been looking at this document and the others on Vintage Machinery and the VN yahoo group.
    I'm gonna have to pay more specific attention to "banjo" when I'm reading and gawking.

    Daryl
    MN

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    Daryl,

    Sorry, I'm going to keep the gearbox. It took me several years to locate a VN-10" vertical head, I'm slowly gathering tooling, bits & pieces. I'll try to get some pictures of the gearbox tomorrow.

    Mike

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    Default Enclosed gearbox front

    exterior-front.jpgHere is a shot of the exterior, front of the box; this would be the original VanNorman color.

    I'm going to use a separate post for most of the photos.

    Mike

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    Default Enclosed Gearbox rear

    exterior-rear.jpg
    rear-2.jpgrear-3.jpg
    On the reverse exterior you have the spline that drives the dividing head, the large hole mounts where the X handwheel is on the table. After looking at this today I may be missing some type of shaft.
    Last edited by Reeltor; 03-14-2015 at 05:00 PM. Reason: Add adtional photos

  16. #34
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    Default Enclosed gearbox x table gear

    x-table-drive.jpgx-table-gear.jpgHere is the front and rear of the gear that attaches to the X table shaft.

  17. #35
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    interior-3.jpginterior.jpg

    Here are two shots of the interior, the gears on the stud on the lower right are 47 and 40 teeth
    In the first photo the upper gear is just sitting in the hole where the X table shaft would go.

    I'm guessing about how this fits together, please correct me if I have it wrong.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfriedberg View Post
    I think that photo must have been mislabled, as I've just looked at a bunch of other #26 photos and they all have box ways. So never mind...
    It would be interesting to know what they were thinking. It is odd that some machines had dovetail ways, some box and some hybrid; while at the same time machines had single round overarms while others had the dovetail with those feature mixed. We'll probably never know.

    As an aside pretty sure many of the duplex mill parts interchanged with the horizontal machines of their respective size. As I recall the overarm brace pictured here was listed on eBay as being for a #2 mill, but the dimensions listed matched the 22L. There is a number stamped into it, but just four digits, not preceding model number often seen on the mills themselves.

  19. #37
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    Thank you Reeltor!
    This is a great starting place for the build.

    Daryl
    MN

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    Those arbor supports fit either a 1-R3 or 2-R3/5. Serial number stamped on the part will tell which model it is for. Private message sent.

  21. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reeltor View Post
    interior-3.jpginterior.jpg

    Here are two shots of the interior, the gears on the stud on the lower right are 47 and 40 teeth
    In the first photo the upper gear is just sitting in the hole where the X table shaft would go.

    I'm guessing about how this fits together, please correct me if I have it wrong.

    Mike
    Mike,

    That looks correct, except that the arm with the four gears on it pivots up until one of the gears on the right contacts the 56-tooth gear on left end of the table's leadscrew. The washer and bolt on the front lock the plate in place once it's setup to correctly mesh with the table gear. You have the important parts. The missing gears can be replaced with common change gears.

    Would it be possible for you to mount the unit on the end of the table and take some photos? I would like to see what the four bolt holes line up with. Also could you pull off one of the gears on the right end (near the slot) and measure the ID of the bore and the width of the keyway?

    Note that the arm with the gears is like the "banjo" that we discussed earlier. The 10" horizontal head's banjo is secured by clamping it to a boss on the head's input shaft, instead of clamping it to the base plate (which, in the case of the vertical head, is bolted to the table. Maybe the vertical head doesn't have the boss for the banjo to clamp onto? Daryl, could you look at that and post a picture?

    Cal

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    Cal,

    When I attach the gearbox to the mill I'll post some photos. It may be a little while before I can do it; I have a number of jobs for the mill that need to get done first. I want to attach a pdf from the Table of Leads on how it all goes together but it exceeds the forums limit. As an alternative here is the booklet from the Vintage Machinery website. The attachment drawings are on the last page.

    Van Norman Machine Tool Co. - Publication Reprints - Index Table for Van Norman Dividing Heads | VintageMachinery.org

    BTW the gears that I have will cut a "9.52" lead, what does this mean?

    Mike


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