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van norman universal milling machine

DT38K

Aluminum
Joined
Oct 29, 2004
Location
Iowa USA
Hello
I've been going through my shop looking for some south bend lathe parts that have been buried for years that I have some interest in from ebay contacts this past week on a listing I am currently running.
I came across several van norman milling attachments that I think are from a universal milling machine.
Some of these units have tags with numbers on them.
I've done some research but can't locate any info on what machine these are from and am hoping someone here might have some knowledge.
I also found some arbor supports and a dividing head with tailstock that are probably from the same machine and some other parts that could be from a Cincinnati mill.
Hoping one of you guys might have a VN parts book or some type of VN manual that will help me clear out some of this stuff that I have no use for.
My personal email is [email protected] if that is ok to release.
Maybe I can download a few pictures also if I can figure out how to do that.
I had taken pictures of these machines a few years back trying to help get some parts from them for the members while they sat in a salvage yard but that didn't pan out very well.
Any help would be appreciated, Randy
 
Randy, if this was the scrap pile I recall discussed here, there were several things I'd be interested in. Please post photos of what you've got so we can identify it for you. Instructions for posting photos can be found on the thread How to post an image on Practical Machinist.

If you have optional attachments (as opposed to "standard" pieces like the overarm arbor supports), these are less likely to appear in the VN manuals. However, the Yahoo VN group has a couple of illustrated catalogs which have pictures of the the attachments.
 
OK, I found the previous thread from 2011. This post has pictures of a universal high speed attachment with spline driver (2 axis + quill), a universal subhead (1 axis), a gear-type high speed attachment (3:1 speeder, zero axis), and a 10" horizontal swivel dividing head. Those names are taken from an VN attachment catalog. Both of the universal attachments require a 50 taper spline driver. (I may have a proper driver, but would need measurements from the driver that Randy possesses to confirm what I have hold of.) The gear-type high speed attachment is driven by the spindle nose keys and does not require a spline driver.

(Corrected and extended in edit: ) The utility of all these attachments is limited by their use of Van Norman "C" and "2" (aka Hardinge 5V and 50V, respectively) collets. But if you can live with that, they can be quite useful. The universal subhead probably uses Van Norman "2" collets, and the others will use Van Norman "C".

I'm most interested in the universal high speed attachment. I've already got a more useful speeder, and a 10" horizontal dividing head. The universal subhead also has some potential.
 
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Hello: I have one of the right angle heads (knucklehead) that I adapted to fit my 2hl universal.. I also made a new spindle for it which accepts R8 collets.. I used it quite a bit and it works well but not a lot of room between the table and the spindle.. Ramsay 1:)
 
The arbors and attachment catalog is here:
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2109/3376.pdf
You can identify the models of the accessories using the illustrations, etc.

If the drive arbors for these are 50 taper, they are version for a No. 22 or larger machine.

Do you have drive arbors for all of the heads? The heads are useless without the drive arbor, so if you don't have enough drive arbors, you might want to sell the heads as a group.

Cal
 
Do you have drive arbors for all of the heads? The heads are useless without the drive arbor,
As noted above, the gear-type high speed attachment does not require the splined drive arbor.

Hopefully DT38K (Randy) will soon let us know how much of that stuff from 2011 is still available, and whether he plans to sell it.

I'd also appreciate measurements (OD, spline count, spline width) from the splined drive arbor he had in 2011 (or anybody else's, for that matter) so I can see if the splined drive arbor I possess is a VN drive arbor or not.
 
Van Norman Milling Head

This is the type of head I adapted to my K&T 2hl universal several years ago... I had to make a drive shaft for it and it had to be 40 std taper and splined... I used an involute gear cutter to cut the splines as I recall....Ramsay 1:)
 

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Thanks for all the replies, what a great start
I am impressed that you were able to locate that 2011 thread, a lot has happened some good and a lot of real bad since then
As far as those machines, those guys were quite a group to deal with, like a love hate relationship
The good 1 of 3 brothers split up and I got caught in the middle and haven't been back since
I seen the good one about a year ago at an auction and brought home 6 pallet boxes full of tooling that he was going to scrap
This was from the kwik way company that makes the boring bar machines, valve grinders, brake lathes, etc...
I had to unload it all by hand in 5 gallon buckets because my forklift was down, that sucked!!!
I will take the pictures tomorrow and follow the instructions to down load them, I just ran out of time today
I have a guy in Pennsylvania buying south bend 16 parts and tooling and I am exhausted from all the digging, moving steel, and climbing through this mess to fill his order
It does appear as though one driver is not there, can't remember which piece it was
I looked at the link that Harold posted and I found almost all of what I have on there except the aluminum arbor supports which are hiding somewhere
I'm going back into another area and look at draw tubes and bars that look similar also that I've had for years
Same goes with several bastard threaded chucks and face plates
I posted an earlier thread tonight about a baby cam lock spindle, Jacobs 50 rubber flex chuck that is smaller than a D1-3 that popped up yesterday, no clue where that came from, don't even remember buying that
The pin size is about .375
See you guys tomorrow
Randy
 
Well, this is the best I could come up with, don't know the formula for making them smaller
Had 19 pictures total, ended only doing 5
Still haven't found the arbor supports.
I also have Cincinnati mill supports that are cast iron and mount from the base to the ram, about 40" tall and supports for the arbor somewhere, will do another post for these, one of them might be van norman
Serial numbers all have 26 prefixes with 6115, 1634, 2032, and 3512 on the dividing head and tailstock
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Serial numbers all have 26 prefixes with 6115, 1634, 2032, and 3512 on the dividing head and tailstock
That indicates they came off (or at least were intended for) a model 26, and should fit any model 22 or later with the NMTB50 spindle taper (22, 24/34, 26/36, 28/38, and the non-quill version of 2R/3R). They won't fit models 6, 12, 16 or 1R, nor the model 22's with B&S13 or 50V (aka VN "2") spindle tapers. The four-digit suffixes are the serial numbers.

You haven't been 100% clear on whether you are actively trying to sell these or just identify them. If you're selling, I'm interested in the universal subhead (3rd photo) and the universal high-speed attachment (4th photo).
 
Randy,

As I said in my email when I sent you the PDF of the accessories catalog. If you plan on selling these; I too would like to have the universal subhead, photo 3. I wouldn't want to get into a "bidding war" with sfriedberg though.

Mike
 
more pictures and information

Ok guys
Let me clarify so that it is understood that we are here to help each other in many ways
I am not the only member that sells parts to other members, but a lot of what I have is a mystery
On many occasions, you guys have been very helpful when it has come to figuring out what something I have might actually be.
With a 40 x 60 building stuffed full of tooling and machinery purchased at auctions over the past 10 years to the point of having no room to get anything
done besides tripping, I have to get back to clearing this building out so that I can actually do something productive.
With that said, I am a tool dealer of sorts.
Over the years, I have bought to have what I want to keep for personal use and then sell the items I have no use for.
I'm not here to cause any friction and I don't want to piss anyone off.
I feel that if I have to come here to get informational help on some item, it would only be right to offer it to a member of this group.
If I am out of line and need to be corrected, let me know
When I started this thread I wrote:
Hoping one of you guys might have a VN parts book or some type of VN manual that will help me clear out some of this stuff that I have no use for.
My personal email is [email protected] if that is ok to release.
Reeltor, Mike was the only one to send a PM to me and he shouldn't feel like he would be forced into a bidding war as he mentioned.
Photo # 3 does not have and arbor like photo # 4 so that is clear.
I have no clue what the value of these parts are, they are only worth what someone is willing to pay.
On ebay, I would price them with a guess figure and if it was low, it would be gone in minutes, or too high it might receive a best offer or run a potential buyer away
I'm sure this has happened before, what would be the right thing to do since there are two members interested in the same item and would someone be willing to give me a value on the remaining items, and I'll put them on ebay

Here are 4 pictures of more items, 3 of which are marked as vn parts, and 1 as Cincinnati
There are a total of 5 aluminum arbor supports, not sure if there are more than kinds as shown

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The arbor support with center in the 3rd photo above will support A-style arbors with the removal of the center. With the ram cutterhead in the horizontal position, the "universal" attachments could be given extra support by that center, as the attachments have a small centerdrilled hole in their bodies in line with the driving arbor.

I'll add that, while dirty, both of those VN arbor supports are in better shape than mine. A previous owner managed to break the dovetail clamping flanges on both of them, and they've been welded up.

One additional thought. The VN arbor support brace (the single slotted one, the Cincinnati is the double slotted one), probably does not fit the same wide range of models as the attachments. Some of the 2X/3X knees had box ways for the Y axis, and some had (half-)dovetailed ways. The brace shown above is intended for box ways, and it would be wise to confirm the width (X) across the ways (both levels) as VN definitely made some changes to the knee design over the decades.
 
The arbor support with center in the 3rd photo above will support A-style arbors with the removal of the center. With the ram cutterhead in the horizontal position, the "universal" attachments could be given extra support by that center, as the attachments have a small centerdrilled hole in their bodies in line with the driving arbor.

I'll add that, while dirty, both of those VN arbor supports are in better shape than mine. A previous owner managed to break the dovetail clamping flanges on both of them, and they've been welded up.

One additional thought. The VN arbor support brace (the single slotted one, the Cincinnati is the double slotted one), probably does not fit the same wide range of models as the attachments. Some of the 2X/3X knees had box ways for the Y axis, and some had (half-)dovetailed ways. The brace shown above is intended for box ways, and it would be wise to confirm the width (X) across the ways (both levels) as VN definitely made some changes to the knee design over the decades.

What model and year is your VN? I have a 22L that, I was told was made in 1954, It has the round overarm support. When did they switch over to the dovetailed system? My machine also has the half dovetail ways and not the box ways on the knee.
 
As far as I know all the 22's and 16's had dovetail ways and the round overarm. However the 24L had a round overarm, where as the 24M had the dovetail configuration. Machines designed later had the box ways and dovetail overarm configuration.
 
Ok guys
Let me clarify so that it is understood that we are here to help each other in many ways
I am not the only member that sells parts to other members, but a lot of what I have is a mystery
On many occasions, you guys have been very helpful when it has come to figuring out what something I have might actually be.
With a 40 x 60 building stuffed full of tooling and machinery purchased at auctions over the past 10 years to the point of having no room to get anything
done besides tripping, I have to get back to clearing this building out so that I can actually do something productive.
With that said, I am a tool dealer of sorts.
Over the years, I have bought to have what I want to keep for personal use and then sell the items I have no use for.
I'm not here to cause any friction and I don't want to piss anyone off.
I feel that if I have to come here to get informational help on some item, it would only be right to offer it to a member of this group.
If I am out of line and need to be corrected, let me know
When I started this thread I wrote:
Hoping one of you guys might have a VN parts book or some type of VN manual that will help me clear out some of this stuff that I have no use for.
My personal email is [email protected] if that is ok to release.
...
I don't think that you done anything wrong or out of line. Even though you don't have anything that I need, I think that it's great that you're putting things up here instead of just putting them up on eBay. Please continue!

Cal
 
sfriedberg,

My VN swivel dividing head and tailstock are each marked serial# 2-6038.
Does this suggest they "came off (or at least were intended for) a model" 22?

I haven't seen a listing of VN accessory serial numbers.

Thanks,
Daryl
MN
 








 
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