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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    the over arms are still stuck, but will move when the temperature is above 50f.
    You are prbably ahead of me on this, but a "checklist", just in case'

    1) Remove all upset metal at the ends of the bars where Bubba has raised welts over the ages.

    2) Remove ALL exposed rust, polish ALL OF the exposed bars. Bad cess to get it movng, then "wedge" as it rides onto worse rust.

    3) Find and stone any bumps. Same goal.

    4) TRY the dead blow hammer

    5) If No Joy? This may seem counter-intuitive, but it works a treat.

    Fit a brass, bronze, or shiney-wood "shoe", Hose clamps can be a friend.

    Try blows from a HARD hammer to make it ring like a bell. Or even use a hammer-drill, impacting, not rotating. 12, 16, 20 pound sledge was our loyal brother, mining and rail.

    That last part - vibration or sharp shock - shatters the nano-particles of rust which can otherwise occupy up to 14 times as much volume as pure Iron. A "wedging" action, not welding action, is how rust binds.

    OTOH, Iron Oxide has near-zero strength when loaded in shear. The nano-lattice collapses, no longer occupies as much space, relieves the binding "pressure".

    Hence the need of sharp, high acceleration, blows or vibration... rather than slower "push" as comes off a dead-blow hammer.

  2. #42
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    I bought a HF heat gun, placed it in the gear adjusters hole, ran it for 2hrs until the top of the mill was hot to the touch, and was able to drive the left ram this far until the lead hammer gave out.


    Now its past the rust ring from being in the casting, it will be easier to move, but is still frozen when cold. I think the best solution is in front of me. I will clamp the arm to the table, and use the Y axis screw to at least assist pulling the arm the rest of the way out .
    The 3 1/2" arms are precision, they have just .0005 variation in 56" length, so far the ends are not damaged, the rust spots will have no effect in using the machine, and will fade in use.
    The next few days the weather should get warmer, I will heat the casting with the heat gun, clamp the left arm to the table, and walk it out with some pounding and pulling using the table screw. When the left arm is out, I can reach in the hole and pretty much clean up the right arm inside the casting.
    Some knee photos,
    Split knee showing the axis screw with the dust cover back, notice the galling on the ways from heavy side loading.


    A view from under showing how the knee wraps around the screw, and oiling system with twin pumps lower right,

    This area was really packed with dirt and cutting oil, the oil lines were not visible, the device at left oils the column ways when the 3/4hp knee motor stops.
    On the question about the X axis handle, first a set screw on the handle is removed then it slides straight off, this one was stuck and had to be heated a little, the parts are a tight fit.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I bought a HF heat gun, placed it in the gear adjusters hole, ran it for 2hrs until the top of the mill was hot to the touch, and was able to drive the left ram this far until the lead hammer gave out.
    From the INSIDE? The heat probably expanded the rods as well as the casting?

    Either way.. I'd say by this stage you are clear of doing any damage to the innards, faithful lead hammer gave it's life... but not in vain!



    Life is short. I am no longer young, so..

    - Rope sling so the bugger doesn't crash-dive into the table when it lets go.

    - White Oak or shineywood bar stock. Heavy sledge hammer. Soon out.

    Appalachian Rednecks may be crude, rude, socially unacceptable, politically unpredictable, religiously irreverent, even sexually indifferent, drop more food than we eat.

    Also "still HERE" and still kicking ass!

    "New England" born mill is only trifling with your good nature 'coz it thinks you are an effette left coaster!


  4. #44
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    This is what I did.
    I attached a HF heat gun to a ladder so it blew hot air into the machines casting through the gear adjuster hole. It took 6hrs to heat the top of the machine hot to the touch.
    I used steel blocks on the table, with small aluminum blocks to protect the arm, and used the Y axis screw to pull the arm forward, then strike it from behind with the lead hammer.


    Just after dark it finally released, and pulled out the rest of the way using the table screw. The heat gun did the trick!

    New day, fresh lead hammer.

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  6. #45
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    Still working around rain and wind, I managed to get the other arm out. Without heat the arms just will not move. Checking the fit, there is less then .002" clearance, so its important not to swell the ends of the arms with hammering.
    The right arm was the most stuck, in the photo I have two heat guns centered in the left arms holes with aluminum foil gaskets, and directing the heat though the lower locking pin holes. The two guns heated the top of the machine around 200f and then I was able to use the table screw to pull and the lead hammer to drive from behind, even at that it took a few hours to remove "after dark".
    I have both arms out, and one more stuck part in there to get out. Some more photos coming, I am on the down hill of this problem anyway.

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  8. #46
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    It is good to see one coming back to life. Also amazing to see how well they can survive the neglect.

  9. #47
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    The last problem in the top of the machine is this rod that works the rear arm lock. The arm locks themselves are cored and cast into the machine just requiring the saw cut to function.


    Cleaning up the face of the column, a little paint should make the mill look pretty good.

    It started snowing right after taking the photo!

  10. #48
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    Still storming outside, but I am going to get this last part free at first chance. The next photo shows the rod from the rear, it is twisted and stuck in its front bushing. This rod works the rear arm lock when the locking lever at the front is moved.

    This rod has a gear rack milled on it, best to be careful and go slow here.
    A move toward progress, I have some parts cleaned and primer painted

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  12. #49
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    Weather cleared up, I was able to clean up the arms "not too bad", and get them back into the machine. The stuck locking parts finally came out.
    The arms have about .0015" clearance to the holes in the machine casting. The casting has short bearing areas front an rear as seen in the photos, with the clamping surfaces just inside. I found it "not easy" starting the 3 1/2" X 56" solid steel arms through the first bearing, I used cobbled together blocks and clamps to again fix the arm to the table, and also suspending the arm with an engine lift. It was easier getting the cleaned and oiled arms back in, then coming out, but it took me an hour to get each one back in. With all that cleaned to a reasonable point, the arms can now be pushed easily back and forth with one hand.

    There is some deep pitting in places, but looks like it will not interfere with the operation of the machine.

    Now, I can finally move the machine inside! I am doing some more paint removing, and smoothing of rough areas on the war board castings while it is still outside.

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  14. #50
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    Just wanted to say that you've made good progress. Keep it up!

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    With all that cleaned to a reasonable point, the arms can now be pushed easily back and forth with one hand.
    "For YOU, maybe."

    Well done! Very.

    But if ever we meet? Be a mensch and kindly remind me to cheat like hell if you offer to arm wrestle!


  16. #52
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    I am the champion over arm wrestler in Walla Walla! But, I am willing to surrender the championship belt to the next challenger.
    That was hard, and way too time consuming! I have gotten to like the machine a lot, its is coming out better then expected.
    I am pushing 140hrs in the project, cold weather was a real problem drastically slowing down removing the arms.
    Nearing the end of this machine make over.

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  18. #53
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    The chain drive was a real bad idea, plan to change it out to cog belt drive, or vee belts...Phil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Montana View Post
    The chain drive was a real bad idea, plan to change it out to cog belt drive, or vee belts...Phil
    Whyso? That partic'lar family of chain shows-up? ANYWHERE? It's an indicator a designer had a generous budget, goal for long and trouble-free life, and gave enough of a damn to spend his funding wisely to assure it became a reality.

    D'y not ken how many hundreds of thousands of miles worth of 'em are rolling the roads of the world, hidden inside Aisen-New Process and other transfer cases, 4WD/AWD we-hickles or Front-Wheel drive - going about their Day Job, generally unremarked?

    Clean it. Lube "sparingly". COVER it. JF USE it. What I recall of 'em, it is being run "understressed" at less than half it's rated power transmission budget.

    Not all are so wisely applied, but this one is. It is likely to outlast easily half of us here today.

    Already has, many who ran that mill as an adult when it was new.

    "Bicycle chain" it was never.


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  21. #55
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    Thermite...I say zig so you say zag??? The noise the bloody chain makes is unreal, and being its 60 plus years old it will be shot, and the cost is unreal. I have sold and used heavy iron all my life, whats your story??...Phil

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    Hi Phil,
    When I discovered the chain, I quickly cam up with alternatives, its not a big deal adapting a sheave to the machines drive hub.
    The chain is in great shape because the machine had low hours before it was dragged out into the weather.
    Looking at available info, Brown&Sharpe used the chain drive from the 1920s to the point of this machine 1944. If the mill had the motor in the base or at the base, the chain was used. Later machines located the motor up high directly driving the gears, and including a clutch along with a brake.
    My experience with the silent chain drives is zero, however, my brother happens to have a 1944 war time Reed Prentice lathe, that has the same chain drive. I have not used the machine, but he is often running it and I didn't know it had a chain, the machine seemed to be quiet and smooth. He is concerned about future replacement "if needed".
    I would like to hear more about potential problems with the chain, At this point I am going to give the chain a try, the lube instructions on the inspection cover states "use little oil".
    I didn't weigh the chain, but it is heavy, the machine has an effective brake to stop the mass of moving metal, and 5hp to get it moving.
    I will find out soon!

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    silent chain is a misname,I think morse held the pat. on the chain. Some of the lathe builders used it, but the chain would vibrate and leave ripple marks in the finish. I have changed out every machine chain that I was involved with. Noise and and the vibration was gone afterwords. I even had a shaper that used the silent chain, you couldn't hear the machine cut over the racket...Phil

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    ... brother happens to have a 1944 war time Reed Prentice lathe, that has the same chain drive. I have not used the machine, but he is often running it and I didn't know it had a chain, the machine seemed to be quiet and smooth. He is concerned about future replacement "if needed".
    First one I ran was on a conversion of a 50-inch Niles former cone-head of somewhere around War one vintage. The conversion was probably done during War Two and was still good as-of 1963 and onward. The Morse "rocker link" silent chain was ten or eleven inches wide to a 50 HP Dee Cee motor.

    "Silent" is a bit optimistic. It isn't, quite, but close. Much less noisy than gears. Ex: My '79 Jeep Grand Wagoneer, "Quadra Trac" - 360 V8 upgraded to an AMC pony-car manifold to mount a serious AFB car-brute-ator, was never NOT in All-Wheel drive, but we never heard the chain at its work. GMC 400 series slush box driving it made more noise.

    The "rocker link" and its double pin design does engage and disengage without the "cogging" of spur gears and even less the cyclic action of bicycle-style roller chain.

    That makes it closer in delivery to herringbone gears than spur gears.

    One limitation with steel chain is that because of its mass, yah can't run it too FAST. As the speed goes up the centrifugal force tries to make a circle. The force then applies pressure towards pulling the shafts closer together.

    It's about as smooth as or smoother than the trapezoidal-tooth Gilmer-patent elastomeric belt so far a power transmission goes. Pirelli's parabolic tooth synchronous belt is smoother than either.

    "Audible noise" is a separate animal. The "rubber" toothed belts are quieter, just not as "cog-free" as first appears.

    New chain is about ten or twelve bucks a running foot, that size, and stocked by many suppliers, generally ten-foot lengths.

    "Personally?" I'd clean it... give it a shot of Wurth HHS-K "Hinge lube" about once a year:

    HHS-K Hinge Lubricant | Specialty Lubricants | Lubricants | Chemical Product | Wurth USA

    And expect it to outlive me.

    Seriously.

    Check with yer brother as to the last time his chain needed renewed. Or how often he needs to clean or lube it.

    "Potential Problems?"

    The "unaware" folk confusing it with sumthin' else as don't understand how good it is probably the biggest "problem" I am aware of.

    QED, already, even...


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    The Reed Prentice lathe produced a really good finish, my brother has other good lathes also. He said, there appears to be no way to adjust the chain, and seems to have a lot of slack. The mill has a really nice adjustment plate for slack, but also adjustment for alignment.
    The chain on the mill is the same as on his lathe, the chain is not constructed like multi row chain like used on Harley Davidson, it seems to be like woven wire on the teeth side.
    There appears to be enough room under the 180lbs rear cover for a belt conversion if needed, but for awhile anyway, there will be two machines still using a chain drive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    The Reed Prentice lathe produced a really good finish, my brother has other good lathes also. He said, there appears to be no way to adjust the chain, and seems to have a lot of slack. The mill has a really nice adjustment plate for slack, but also adjustment for alignment.
    The chain on the mill is the same as on his lathe, the chain is not constructed like multi row chain like used on Harley Davidson, it seems to be like woven wire on the teeth side.
    There appears to be enough room under the 180lbs rear cover for a belt conversion if needed, but for awhile anyway, there will be two machines still using a chain drive.
    Trust this - you are going to LIKE it! There's lore "out there" on the history and Geometry of it. Well worth a read.

    US799073A - Drive-chain.
    - Google Patents


    US799073A - Drive-chain.
    - Google Patents


    And the beat has kept on with alterations, etc.

    Clever shapes and roller.rocker link action makes for smooth engagement, low sliding loads, hence very low frictional losses - and also low wear-rate.

    Minimal sliding as the curved links roll or "rock" into engagement rather than slide is part of why it needs very little lube.

    It is made-up of a brazilian simple - but precisely CORRECTLY shaped stampings and their cross-pins - two types & placements - width selected according to how much power has to be transferred.

    4WD /AWD & Front WD transfer cases are only the tip of the iceberg as to still present-day widespread use.

    As an all METAL chain, high-alloy stainless and Monel included, it - and its many "cousins" - also serve to convey goods where high temperatures and harsh chemicals are a challenge.

    Needless to say, if/as/when yah need to replace it, the "right one" out of a dozen and more in the present-day market has to be selected to match the "gears" at both ends. And "gears" is what they ARE, not "pulleys", nor conventional "sprockets" even if so named - given the chain is akin to a "flexible rack", more than a "belt" or "conventional" single-point-of-pivot-per-link chains.

    Age of this mill, the "right one" is very likely the early Morse/Browning "Hi-Vo". But yah need to CONFIRM that, same as you would any other gear - or a threaded fastener.

    Page Two:

    I did say "long life"? The "slack" in the Reed-Prentice one is exhibiting accumulated pin wear, added up over a LOT of joints, the length of his chain.

    Five thou of wear, a hundred pins, and yah have half an inch, so...

    One MAY apply a backside idler to take up slack. Same sort of adjustable/spring-loaded goods as used under-hood on motorcars to tension "serpentine" Poly-Vee // Micro-Vee belts. New chain, same link-count will be shorter. Even so, he may have another 20 years left in the one he has. Or forty years, so long as there is a clutch in the drivetrain to keep hard shock loads from stressing worn pins.

    'bout the only thing Brown & Sharpe was ever dead STOOPID about?

    Labour and Industrial Relations.

    Different kind of "chains" altogether, those were. And they got it badly wrong enough to put them under the ground.

    THIS one, they "got right". Or they'd have changed the design in a LOT less than a quarter-century-plus of real-world USE.


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