Vertical head on No2 B&S Mill - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    As far as I can tell, B&S never did use V belts on a mill. One thing to consider is great strides in V belt performance has been made in the last 70yrs. Probably these chain drives could have been a lot better then belts of the time.
    The chain on the mill here, and I believe also the chain on the RP lathe run a 1750rpm motor turning the drive hub around 500rpms, these old machines could be run from a line shaft if needed from the drive hubs on the rear of the machine
    It sounds to me, machines that had the chain drive, were converted to belt long ago when the chains wore out. Machines like my brothers lathe, and this mill were lost in time, have low hours and the chains still have life....I hope for a little while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    Machines like my brothers lathe, and this mill were lost in time, have low hours and the chains still have life....I hope for a little while.
    Fair certain neither of you will be running either machine eight hours by three shifts by five or six days, so yazz. Possibly longer than you'll have to care, even you live past a hundred for the hours you will actually put on it.

    That said, I doubt it would be much over a hundred bucks - maybe $150 - for a new chain, so long as the sprockets are still good.

    A pair of "A" section Vee belts, 10EE, or a set of 3, 4, or more as some other Grand Old machine-tools require isn't all that much cheaper.

    Add the "proper" Morse/Browning/Maska Cast Iron, AND NOT shiney-wood dual or triple row sheaves WITH "QD" hubs?

    A conversion could total a LOT more money than just a new chain. Even IF new sprockets were needed, at least the planning and labour of conversion is avoidable.

    "Run what you got".

    It looks to have less slack that what you reported for the Reed-Prentice lathe. Also already has adjustment capability?

    Wondering out loud if the R-P couldn't be at least gifted with a fixed shim or spacer plate to take up a skosh of slack, too?

  3. #63
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    I have the adjustable motor plate all the way up to scrape out the possum poo, so the chain has as much slack as possible in the photo. I checked the chain before loosening the motor plate, I could deflect the chain with one finger about 1" at mid point. I looked through, and still looking at the manuals at the vintage machinery site, but could find no instructions on adjusting or lubricating the chain or very much info on anything else. On the other hand, the K&T manuals are informative, even so far as pointing out the faults in the Brown&Sharp mill, of course without naming names.
    I want to take a closer look at my brothers 1944 Reed Prentice lathe, he is happy with that machine. The conversion for his lathe could be harder to do. I agree that run what you got, and only make a change on reasonable need to basis.
    I have the locking parts for the arms cleaned up, some are pretty rough, but they should work. I discovered when I was drifting the rods back and forth with lead and plastic hammers, that when just one end of the arms are locked, a harmonic vibration will travel through an arm when stuck on the side, if locked front and rear the arm sounds dead solid. I think that adjustment is important. The locking lever at the front directly locks the arms at the front, then transfers the motion to the rear lock with the rack and pinion gears, so the rear lock has to be timed with the front lock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I have the adjustable motor plate all the way up to scrape out the possum poo, so the chain has as much slack as possible in the photo. I checked the chain before loosening the motor plate, I could deflect the chain with one finger about 1" at mid point. I looked through, and still looking at the manuals at the vintage machinery site, but could find no instructions on adjusting or lubricating the chain or very much info on anything else.

    *snip*

    I want to take a closer look at my brothers 1944 Reed Prentice lathe, he is happy with that machine. The conversion for his lathe could be harder to do. I agree that run what you got, and only make a change on reasonable need to basis.
    Look for CURRENT info, not ancient.

    Safe bet the same plate-shape, rocker-link pivot, and pitch of chain B&S & R-P used is still in common use, it was that good. When wisely applied, anyway.



    There are dozens of stocking "silent" chain distributors, multiple designs, "the usual suspects" to speciality houses. Google can actually overwhelm a person with the listings.

    Time was Morse/Browning/Emerson/Gates and such had multiple pages in their massive dead-tree drivetrain component "telephone books" covering design-in power calculations, service and other criteria.

    Most is now online as .pdf's. No shortage of it. Just the tedium of wading through the NOT so relevant to find YOUR specific chain and type of application.

    I doubt it will even be an issue.

    Another plug for Wurth HHS-K // HHS-2000 as choice of lube. Overarm rods as well as the chain.

    First, 'coz it MATTERS to me, is that the so-called "hinge lube" has no nasty Silicone to eff-up painting projects for the next ten years.

    It has a high-volatile carrier than penetrates, then leaves a residual - and suprisingly enduring extreme-pressure lube into tight spaces. "Clean", too, no Moly, Sulfur, Graphite, or such!

    I was twigged to it by those taking advantage of that neat result for costly motorcar suspension joints damned fools called "lifetime" and left-off proper Zerk grease fittings for.

    Next surprise was how slick and how long-lasting it was when I "temporarily" slacked the under-rollers, blocked-up the 10EE carriage a skosh, washed out the accumulated swarf and black-particles of fretting corrosion, then shot in the Wurth.

    Damned if it wasn't like sliding on Teflon, and not for just a little while. It endures!

    A manually-applied shot each use beats all Hell out of the Vactra that CAN'T "get in there" just yet. Not until I can get a round-tuit as to rebuilding the OEM lube system.

    That EP residue should work a right treat trapped in rocker-link chain pins and on sprocket wear surfaces... overarms as well - what with no tackifier "glue" to hold swarf.

    Try it on sumthin'. Door hinges, even!


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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    ....I looked through, and still looking at the manuals at the vintage machinery site, but could find no instructions on adjusting or lubricating the chain or very much info on anything else. On the other hand, the K&T manuals are informative, even so far as pointing out the faults in the Brown&Sharp mill, of course without naming names...
    Although you probably already came across this info during your searches I did find a slight blurb addressing the B&S Silent Chain in a 1939 published copy of Brown and Sharpe’s “Practical Treatise on Milling and Milling Machines”.
    It reads: “ Care of Driving Chain on Motor Driven Machines The chain on motor driven machines should be kept clean, well lubricated, and properly adjusted. The tension at which the chain should run is obtained by a convenient adjustment on the motor bracket. Properly adjusted, the chain should have a little less tension than what would be considered right for a leather belt.”

    As an aside, a few years ago I was able to purchase a few needed parts for my B&S#2 heavy mill from a machinist who was scrapping one of his. He stated he was scrapping the machine b/c its silent chain drive was stretched out and he could not get it adjusted correctly no matter how he tried. It was too much $$ to replace the chain or convert it.

    MILO

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    Quote Originally Posted by MILO74 View Post
    ..a few years ago I was able to purchase a few needed parts for my B&S#2 heavy mill from a machinist who was scrapping one of his. He stated he was scrapping the machine b/c its silent chain drive was stretched out and he could not get it adjusted correctly no matter how he tried. It was too much $$ to replace the chain or convert it.

    MILO
    "Too much $$" probably $100 USD for a brand-new chain @ around ten bucks a running foot?

    Can't change the human mind, once made-up, at ANY cost, though, can yah?


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    Its always best to replace the sprockets along with the chain, that would add to the cost, and you would still have to adapt a new sprocket to the machines drive hub. But, I think my machine will be fine, the sprocket teeth show little wear.
    I found this photo of a Southbend overhead with the drive chain.


    The arm locking parts laid out here, the lever at the front of the machine locks the arms both front and rear at the same time using rack and pinion, and left hand threads to close the cast in the machine arms clamps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I think my machine will be fine, the sprocket teeth show little wear.
    Seconded. beside, it's all out whereyou can "get at it" if futre finds it NEEDs renewed. SO JF run it "until...".


    The arm locking parts laid out here, the lever at the front of the machine locks the arms both front and rear at the same time using rack and pinion, and left hand threads to close the cast in the machine arms clamps.
    First, "glad you are back .." to full capability. Because you are GOOD at explaining these things.

    Second, elegant as the concept may have been, stuff wears. And has done.

    What's missing could be added.

    Picture the center of that long rod modified to include opposing threads like a motorcar tie-rod or a turnbuckle.

    With that addition, FINE adjustment could be made so that even worn rack & pinion could apply equal force to front and rear clamping screws - all also subject to wear.

    Not as "elegant", but I'd have wanted to make the linkage external to the housing - automobile steering experience, again - so it could be more easily adjusted.

    Or just put a second lever-handle onto the other clamp and not even try to make them a single-motion lock.

    2CW

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    I think Brown&Sharpe may be the only mill that locks the arms with one handle, the cast in arm locking clamps shows amazing casting design. It appears the clamping areas were line bored along with the holes through the casting, then the short saw cut at the bottom caused that area to spring open .002 to .003" "refer to photos showing inside the machine".
    No instructions found "so far" in manuals as to adjust, but, it looks like the short screws adjust how much the clamps are pinched when the lever is moved to lock, and the long bodied screws lock those. The geared parts go in the right side, the short and long screws go in the left side, short one first.
    So, I am thinking it might be really easy to get the locking timed front and rear, like everything so far, not much info in the manual because its simple.
    Here is a drawing on page 11, happens to be a completely different style of mill.
    http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2185/20060.pdf

    All the major milling machine makers state the over arms need to be locked front and rear, this is an important adjustment to avoid vibration, the Brown&Sharpe system should be checked because its possible the rear clamp may not be tight, the front lock works directly from the handle, the rear from the rack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    No instructions found "so far" in manuals as to adjust, but, it looks like the short screws adjust how much the clamps are pinched when the lever is moved to lock, and the long bodied screws lock those. The geared parts go in the right side, the short and long screws go in the left side, short one first.
    So, I am thinking it might be really easy to get the locking timed front and rear, like everything so far, not much info in the manual because its simple.
    Here is a drawing on page 11, happens to be a completely different style of mill.
    http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2185/20060.pdf

    All the major milling machine makers state the over arms need to be locked front and rear, this is an important adjustment to avoid vibration, the Brown&Sharpe system should be checked because its possible the rear clamp may not be tight, the front lock works directly from the handle, the rear from the rack.
    Nah.. neither you nor I actually WANTS no damned "manual", do we?

    All the FUN is in understanding it on our own hook from observation!

    I mean.. if it was EASY a Politician could do it!

    Or even a "Technical Writer"... part of how we each gots to BE such of a critter, that "witchcraft level" of telepathy where machinery somehow just "talks to" a body and reveals its preferred way of operating.

    "Problem Solving addiction". Life-long blessing. Or curse.

    Chip-making just one of the several methods to fund more chances at it!


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    The mechanical parts of the machine are numerous, but simple. An example is the feed handles and dials for the movements, not one of the parts are interchangeable, the method of attaching the parts are engineered completely differently.
    I removed the paint and rust from the back of the machine and discovered the back of the column was machined in a planer leaving these nice marks, I will clean this up more and leave what can be seen unpainted.
    On the chain drive, the center of the hub is the cone type brake, the really heavy iron cover has a round door with a pin that fits into one of the holes. The brake is adjusted by rotating the center hub and anchoring it with the pin in the cover.
    The machine does not have a clutch, so when the long lever up high is moved, it clicks a switch in the electrical compartment to start the machine. The lever moved down shuts the spindle off, moving the lever further down engages the brake.
    I think without the brake, the machine would have a long spin down considering the weight of the chain.


    For those considering pulling something like this from scrap, this is a good sign, the table gib has considerable adjustment, the table does not get tight at the end. The table gib is at mid left. This was one of the first points of my inspection!

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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I think without the brake, the machine would have a long spin down considering the weight of the chain.
    The reverse of what might be expected, actually. As the chain is not moving on the rim of a "regular" circle, it tends to help the whole system slow down sooner.

    Diverting the mass of the moving chain from a straight line to go around each sprocket - then diverting back to another straight line, departing each sprocket, actually takes up a ration of energy not "paid back" at full efficiency. A tower of spur gears and idlers could coast as long. Or longer.

    Not that it would be all that long, either way, anything other than direct motor drive - notorious for long coast-down, any saw or grinder without some form of braking.

    Compare direct-motor-drive grinder and belted drive grinder, any type belt, for another example. Or the hysteresis in the elastic flexing of a 10EE's simple belts turning kinetic energy of motion into a small ration of heat.

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    I see "whether" reports most nights, your patch, still dropping to freezing or below whilst here in "Southerly" Sterling/Dulles we are seeing shirtsleeve days, more light drizzle - if any - than actual rain.

    I'm about to start re-con on my own B&S # 1 universal table as has been settin', badly neglected.

    Hope yer outdoors work in the nasty weather hasn't laid yah low?

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    I had a break in the weather and managed to move the machine inside. The door behind is a 48" UL listed fire door-"Hanford surplus of course", the mill slipped though in zig zag fashion with no problem.



    This photo, I just scraped the rust of the table top showing the battle scars from long ago, the old 6" Kurt vise I have will cover all but one. The dark spots fade with application of kerosene and oil, I wipe my machines down with kerosene because it smells so good.


    I have not come across a Hanford surplus machine that wasn't wired for high voltage, this one is, 6 bundles of two wires. The switches are GE, I will have to change the switch heaters according to the convenient chart on the electrical compartment door. The compartment at left has a large solenoid that engages with the rapid traverse lever. I will employ the high technology of a Simpson 260 meter to solve these mysteries.


    The switches are just full of dust, I have to take all this apart, mice nest and related stink. Up high is the original rocker switch, with heavy spring detent, that was bypassed with the two blue wires. The rocker shaft goes into the gear case where the operating clevis is broken. This is a problem that was once mentioned here on the forum long ago.

    Right now its 29 outside, but 70 inside. The space I have for the machine would not allow pulling out the overarms, but it would have been a lot easier with the machine warm.
    And, the first parts back on the mill-the oil windows in the knee, probably broken out by masked hoodlums!

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I wipe my machines down with kerosene because it smells so good.
    LOL! Up yer standards to "gourmet" level, then!

    Marvel Mystery Oil. Mebbe 80-percent plus kerosene, and never mind the red dye.

    Nice smell of synthethic oil of wintergreen, fair-decent Biocide and crud lifter/preventer! Add a tad of ATF and WD-40, witch's brew works a right treat at keeping a fifty-foot plumber's spring-wire "snake" coiled into a cheap-arse water-heater drip pan less grubby and rust-prone after use, "down-sewer"!

    ANYTHING else should be easier? Even a grubby coolant sump?

    Wouldn't put it into any IC engine that had moving PARTS as I had much regard for, though! More "snake oil" than lube oil as to any anti-friction effect.

    I did say "mostly Kerosene"?

    The "Marvel" is how many decades, 1923 to present-day, they have been able to keep SELLING the silly stuff!

    Our History | Mystery Oil Motors


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    The real mystery is why it is still being bought...
    Marvel Mystery Oil, mineral oil, acetone and peppermint,and red dye.......Phil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Montana View Post
    The real mystery is why it is still being bought...
    Marvel Mystery Oil, mineral oil, acetone and peppermint,and red dye.......Phiul
    Folks buy the damndest stuff, though, even with easy online lookup of the product data sheets.

    Add PURPLE dye to common lye, or citrus orange or yellow to ignorant dish detergent, and brag all the way to the bank..

    Guess it harks back to snakes, apples, and the alleged value of virginity...???

    You'd have to know humans and gullibility? Or maybe just Microsoft "Windows"?


  20. #78
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    I had an old British motorcycle from the 50s, it stated to add one egg cup of marvel mystery oil to each tank of gas-as an upper end lubricant, a very important lubricant in world wide use. It also stated to boil the clutch plates in petroleum if they get sticky, another tip lost in time.
    One of the machine makers stated wiping down a machine with Kerosene will make the paint look good, and keep the bright work bright. When doing that, the rag picks up way oil and helps prevent rust on the bare surfaces. I wipe down the painted areas first, then the bare metal, with a small amount of kerosene.
    Working in hydraulics where you have oil on you hand all the time, a rag with kerosene will get the worst of it off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    One of the machine makers stated wiping down a machine with Kerosene will make the paint look good, and keep the bright work bright.
    Herr Pelz shared the trick to keeping his cherished "MURTzudee".. Mercedes-Benz looking good. He used WARM wash water, and added half a cup per two gallon pail of.. ta da.. would you believe it? Yup. Kerosene.

    Wuddn' yah know it, many years on, the pesky folk at Bayerisch Motoren Werke used the same seats, brakes, electricals, and window hardware as DB - but a different tribe altogether of paint for my '72 "Bavaria".

    Didn't take long, the kerosene had converted the high gloss on what had been a lovely - and shiney - "Malaga" into sort of a plum-colored resemblance to a dusty brick!

    Prolly evened the score in avoided speeding tickets though.

    Got mistaken for an overage female-Volvo, time after time ... and simply ignored!

    Rat-raced some youngster in a then-"hot" 240-Z across Pennsyltucky 2-lane blacktop, waxed his ass. Four doors vs fastback coupe notwithstanding, the Bimmer was actually LIGHTER. We both pulled into Bedford for a snack before hitting the Turnpike.

    By the time he parked and walked over and said "What the F**K sort of engine have you stuffed into that old Volvo?"

    I had the hood up so the twin Zeniths on the "1971 and a HALF" rare Euro-spec 3.0 could give him a total of THREE s**t-eating grins! Twenty-two more HP, 900 lbs less in "five MPH bumpers" air-con, power-steering and such niceties..than the "true 1972" emission & safety spec 4-drs.

    Youth. Wasted on the young, more often than not.


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    The old 50wt Harley Davidson oil had a strong smell, but it could be mixed with kerosene for extreme cold weather-they didn't have electric starters back then.
    Working back up the knee to the table, I uncovered a nice machined area around the awesome power feed dial I will leave that "bright", and some other machined areas.
    Going over the machine several times, it starts looking pretty good. The repeated kerosene treatment helps release the staining.


    At right is the famous Brown & Sharpe "claw" wrench holder.

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