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    Default Welcome to Heavy Iron

    Welcome to Heavy Iron ! Where we discuss Cincinnati, Brown & Sharpe, Kearney & Trecker, Van Norman, American Tool Works, Axelson, and other Heavy Iron from the USA.

    A veteran section in these forums, and hopefully soon to be improving.

    Odd that Monarch doesn't fall into this category, maybe we should roll it in. Its heavy iron, its American made. . . Oh wait, Cal Haines is holding a shotgun, slowly shaking his head at me. Ha ! Joking Cal, don't look so serious.

    After a bit of bedlam, where it seemed like a lawless B version of a Mad Max film, we'll be working to sort this section out and make it enjoyable for all.

    Being new as a moderator, I hope to serve you well. And hope we all have a fun and interesting time together.

    Basic rules and courtesies apply:
    1) Try to title your thread, so future searchers can find relevant info. Vague titles get annoying.

    2) Try to stay on topic, especially if you are not the op. Thread drift will happen, but try not to thread jack with endless off topic stuff. Private message or use General for chit chat.

    3)Off topic threads are fine, but write O/T or Off topic in title.

    4) Joking and friendly ball-breaking are fine, but include to keep it light, lol.

    5) Personal insults and attacks are NOT ok. They will be met with "interesting and weird punishments". (Example removed. Gentlemanly behavior be with us till the next example )

    6) Insults or personal attacks on other moderators will NOT be tolerated. Enhanced versions of interesting and weird punishments will be applied for an extended time. Consider rule 5 and multiply by 10.

    Should special circumstance warrant, specialized rules will will be placed here:
    Last edited by texasgunsmith; 10-01-2020 at 09:33 PM.

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    Nice to see some moderation here. Welcome change.

    I have a few questions:


    1. How heavy is heavy is heavy? This seems to be the catch-all for Modern-ish machinery that doesn't have a specific subforum. I know PM's policy on lighter homeshop machines, but given that every South Bend, even 9"ers with no QCGB, is welcome on this forum, surely a modest but not heavy Clausing, etc should go somewhere? General?
    2. How old is antique? I've noticed that some WWII era machines end up here and some in antique. I'm sure some of it should be left to the poster, but can we get a general guideline? Flat-belt, threaded spindle, plain bearing, etc? I for example felt my Sidney was modern enough to belong here, but I've seen much more modern Sidneys in the Antique section.
    3. What sort of machines don't belong because they are tucked in some other section? I know Rivett tends to be posted in the Monarch section, and I'm not totally sure why.
    4. Does PM support threadbans? I've been on other forums and they are very effective. They could have solved many of the recent issues.


    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClappedOutBport View Post
    [*]What sort of machines don't belong because they are tucked in some other section? I know Rivett tends to be posted in the Monarch section, and I'm not totally sure why.
    It isn't only Rivett welcomed into the Monarch forum. It is also Hendey Tool & Gage (but not Hendey in general), Nebel Microturn and similar.

    "As a user sees it":

    - low-production volume or even really, really rare (Nebel..)

    - more costly than average for their era

    - "Super precision" toolroom / tool & gage lathes as claimed for the maker's market niche and/or proven to be so in the field.

    - that are not as numerous as engine lathes.

    Somewhat imprecise a grouping in that not all Monarch's are 10EE, and that the 10EE actually ended up being built in larger total numbers than rather a lot of engine lathes were before their production ceased.

    As to how old is "antique"?

    Face it. If it is "all manual" and not CNC, practically ALL the machine-tools in every forum on PM are "antique". Some CNC is "antique" as well.

    Orphaned and long years out of new production in any case.

    Doesn't mean they are not still generating important revenue streams in commercial-industrial, not hobby, use.

    Now waddyah do?

    "Run what we got"

    Discuss what we run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClappedOutBport View Post
    Nice to see some moderation here. Welcome change.

    I have a few questions:


    1. How heavy is heavy is heavy? This seems to be the catch-all for Modern-ish machinery that doesn't have a specific subforum. I know PM's policy on lighter homeshop machines, but given that every South Bend, even 9"ers with no QCGB, is welcome on this forum, surely a modest but not heavy Clausing, etc should go somewhere? General?
    2. How old is antique? I've noticed that some WWII era machines end up here and some in antique. I'm sure some of it should be left to the poster, but can we get a general guideline? Flat-belt, threaded spindle, plain bearing, etc? I for example felt my Sidney was modern enough to belong here, but I've seen much more modern Sidneys in the Antique section.
    3. What sort of machines don't belong because they are tucked in some other section? I know Rivett tends to be posted in the Monarch section, and I'm not totally sure why.
    4. Does PM support threadbans? I've been on other forums and they are very effective. They could have solved many of the recent issues.


    Thanks.
    I wouldn't let weight specifically stop anyone from posting here with American made stuff. More of a cool catch phrase imo, like "no substitute for cubic inches" when refering to big block vs small engines. The idea of this particular sub-section is generally American made, and industrial. Not Atlas or Craftsman.

    In reality, Cincinnati and B & S by themselves could probably have their own subsection, with the wide variety of machine tools they offered. I wasn't here during the sites inception, but looking at all the current sub sections, it would probably take pages to offer a subsection to each individual manufacture, as an example, look at Vintage Machinery's manufacture index :
    VintageMachinery.org | Welcome

    I'm not opposed to any of that being posted here. . .I think , including Clausing. I agree with thermite in that pretty much most, if not all machines posted here are in fact now antiques. There was a time, that automobiles were eligible for antique license plates at 25 years old. Though I doubt I could call any 1995 car an antique with a straight face.

    There are many threads that could go to the Antique section or here, op's discretion. The Antique section enjoys a large, laid back following. Maybe due to being as far from General as possible ? Even with the brain power in the Antique section, with older, experienced guys, it remains probably as civil and friendly as one could hope for a public forum.

    With a little luck and effort, maybe we can steer this sub section in that direction and boost activity here as well.

    Feel free to comment in this thread for now. However I may make this a sticky and delete general comments from it, don't take it personal, I'm still sorting things out and don't have all the answers yet.
    Last edited by texasgunsmith; 09-19-2020 at 10:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    it remains probably as civil and friendly as one could hope for a public forum.
    What's missing is... that vintage site you cited is an information repository, not a discussion forum.

    PM actually HAS provision for BOTH.

    ...but the discussion gets all the traffic.

    If more "here's what", "how it was done", were closed and archived, once mission was accomplished, "sticky" STYLE, but not sticky positioning?

    Chatter would be chatter. Projects would be projects.

    There could not be as much thread drift or chatter in a show-it thread, even if it was attempted.

    Absent that, off it goes to v---m.org (where there mostly ARE NO comments) or to You Tube where there are, but they don't enter into the content stream.. nor often get read if even their presence is noticed.

    "Picture people" have and do migrate off to You Tube, have been for ages.

    More recently, to the "social disease" networks as well, as have also seeking, offering, buying, selling goods and services as alternatives to Craigslist, eBay.. and even PM.

    General societal changes, all of those, not just age of machinery.

    Note even on PM, the growth in "..tapatalk" sigs.

    Even though those can be optioned-off to reduce the screen pollution, few ever bother to do it.

    Possible changes?

    - OP has unrestricted space.

    - OTHER THAN OP gets two lines only.

    Not enough? Surely it can be:

    "I'm emailing you a manual". "please email me a higher-res of foto...."

    Or go and start a thread so as to become an "OP".

    Mind .. if you think my posts on PM are long, you might not want an email!



    OTOH all yah do with an email is click delete.

    Or set a filter rule.

    A filter can also delete. Or it can sort into folders for later review, nicely grouped. I usually have one or two DOZEN MUA folders in -place. Sorting is bothway.

    Done.

    PM has similar tools. Not all of us notice nor setup the folders to use them.

    Those don't "make a copy" that takes up more server space.

    A PM folder only stores the object ID's for going and getting what is already there, the one copy only. It works like a browser's "bookmark", actually.

    PM has many tools very few put to advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    What's missing is... that vintage site you cited is an information repository, not a discussion forum.

    PM actually HAS provision for BOTH.

    ...but the discussion gets all the traffic.
    In referring to civil and friendly, I meant the Antique section here on PM. I edited my comment to reflect that, if there was a mis-understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    It isn't only Rivett welcomed into the Monarch forum. It is also Hendey Tool & Gage (but not Hendey in general), Nebel Microturn and similar.
    "As a user sees it":
    - low-production volume or even really, really rare (Nebel..)
    - more costly than average for their era
    - "Super precision" toolroom / tool & gage lathes as claimed for the maker's market niche and/or proven to be so in the field.
    - that are not as numerous as engine lathes.
    Somewhat imprecise a grouping in that not all Monarch's are 10EE, and that the 10EE actually ended up being built in larger total numbers than rather a lot of engine lathes were before their production ceased.

    As to how old is "antique"?
    Face it. If it is "all manual" and not CNC, practically ALL the machine-tools in every forum on PM are "antique". Some CNC is "antique" as well.
    Orphaned and long years out of new production in any case.
    Thank you Thermite, that was actually quite helpful.

    I agree that nearly all manual machines are antique, but someone who bought a brand new one probably doesn't want to hear that!

    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I wouldn't let weight specifically stop anyone from posting here with American made stuff. More of a cool catch phrase imo, like "no substitute for cubic inches" when refering to big block vs small engines. The idea of this particular sub-section is generally American made, and industrial. Not Atlas or Craftsman.

    In reality, Cincinnati and B & S by themselves could probably have their own subsection, with the wide variety of machine tools they offered. I wasn't here during the sites inception, but looking at all the current sub sections, it would probably take pages to offer a subsection to each individual manufacture, as an example, look at Vintage Machinery's manufacture index :
    VintageMachinery.org | Welcome

    I'm not opposed to any of that being posted here. . .I think , including Clausing. I agree with thermite in that pretty much most, if not all machines posted here are in fact now antiques. There was a time, that automobiles were eligible for antique license plates at 25 years old. Though I doubt I could call any 1995 car an antique with a straight face.

    There are many threads that could go to the Antique section or here, op's discretion. The Antique section enjoys a large, laid back following. Maybe due to being as far from General as possible ? Even with the brain power in the Antique section, with older, experienced guys, it remains probably as civil and friendly as one could hope for a public forum.

    With a little luck and effort, maybe we can steer this sub section in that direction and boost activity here as well.

    Feel free to comment in this thread for now. However I may make this a sticky and delete general comments from it, don't take it personal, I'm still sorting things out and don't have all the answers yet.
    In light of what Thermite said, and your own thoughts, I have this suggestion. It sounds and looks like the Monarch section is home to all the toolroom and ultra-precision lathes. So why not rebrand it to the Toolroom, ultra-precision, watchmaker lathes section, and move the larger engine lathes into this section. I suppose it would be a monumental effort to move those threads.

    I agree that it's a bad idea to do a section for everything. I just click on Heavy Iron, Antique machinery, etc a few times a day (keep forgetting about Monarch!). If there were a million different subsections I'd miss 90% of them. I know you can subscribe, but I don't want to be subbed to everything.

    No hard feelings if you've gotta delete posts here.

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    I like how this site is broken down for the most part. A few of the CNC sections should just be closed and handled in the CNC section, Those other forum sites that have 300 subsections suck.

    Monarch having it's own section and all other heavier lathes and mills going here makes sense to me.

    Monarch made all kinds of stuff and the owners often strike me as people that might prefer to talk about their machine or collect some rare accessory than make stuff with it . The Monarch folk need their own special place where they can discuss the intricacies of their machines and post pictures of their latest paint job . Ha, I joke ! Let me buy you beer, I love you guys.

    To me the operative word in the section title is HEAVY. If it doesn't have a section somewhere else and it's also heavy, it goes here.

    There's much in the antique section that would fit well here I think, but it isn't defined so it ends up there. To me, anything that is more focused on historic information should go in antiques. The use, repair and general sharing of the fixing up process should go here if it fits the HEAVY descriptor.

    I do not feel clausing belongs here. Logan is not heavy. Hendey made mostly light weight machines. I don't think it's been a dealbreaker that there's no specific section for those machines on this site. It's a big internet out there.
    Last edited by texasgunsmith; 09-19-2020 at 08:46 PM. Reason: Forum rule 4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    The use, repair and general sharing of the fixing up process should go here if it fits the HEAVY descriptor.
    "Use" is what it says it is. More about technique, tooling, alloys, "the knowledge", tricks, workarounds, fiddles, dumb stuff one guy has forgot, some others remind him to go and verify... and skill levels, for the specs to be hit and the throughput and RDD's needed to survive, economically.

    Temperature effects, coolants, even quality of materials mebbe as side branches?

    Not much to do with any specific machine under hand.

    "Fixing up" is a necessity. For WORKING machines meant to earn a crust.

    "Museum display" or collector shows like a parade of old cars is a different thing. Entertainment, maybe, revenue not often.

    Needful repair has commonality that ALSO crosses make and model boundaries.

    "Scraping" should be a specialized side-branch on that tree, not the only trunk.

    PAINTING should be all in one place for the machinery. All brands, all ages.
    "Prettiest old lathe", UGLIEST old mill", "lookie what I found in the barn!" nor "like new CNC cabinet and SEXY BUTTONS!" have SQRT-FA to do with getting paid for product.

    What matters in "manufacturing" is not having a hundred thousand parts come back 'coz the coating failed a customer.

    Some OTHER place for industrial coatings, and other PRODUCTION finish techniques (anodizing alone has the need of sharing problems and solutions)?

    A "hobby" restoration pondering for a month or three over paint primer & filler selection should be learning from WATCHING "best current industrial practice". Not the other way 'round. Trying to argue powder-coating sucks, we should go back to lamp-black, clay, rotted egg-yolk and lindseed oil ... for a ten thouand item run of ignorant lawnmower decks or commodity tool storage cabinets?

    Are we, perchance making PM irrelevant to anyone BUT the "hobbyist" come to chatter?

    Spent a lot more years running the factory than cranking handles in one.
    Even more years sorting the legals and economics of it.

    Are we working into sharing our strengths?

    Or taking the easier cop-out ... retreating to playing wit' our putzen?

    I could do a "reset", park the hobby projects into a better "fenced off" area from the means and methods of production.

    Whom else is up for it?


    2CW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Monarch made all kinds of stuff and the owners often strike me as people that might prefer to talk about their machine or collect some rare accessory than make stuff with it . The Monarch folk need their own special place where they can discuss the intricacies of their machines and post pictures of their latest paint job . Ha, I joke ! Let me buy you beer, I love you guys.
    Now that's what I'm talking about ! He jokes. He breaks balls. But he keeps it light and fun, knowing the guys with Monarchs will be over here talking about mills too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    Are we, perchance making PM irrelevant to anyone BUT the "hobbyist" come to chatter?

    Are we working into sharing our strengths?

    I could do a "reset", park the hobby projects into a better "fenced off" area from the means and methods of production.

    Whom else is up for it?
    I would guess the deeper learning/sharing of working pro's that you are asking for would be near the top of the forums under the main section "Manufacturing today". With CNC, Shop Management, Manufacturing etc.

    One large issue is most real professionals, journeyman and mid-range talent, actively working in a legit shop will never log in, will never read it. Guys working on the floor, really making it happen 8-12 hour shifts will never spend their free time at home to talk about work for free. They are slamming beers or relaxing with their lady.

    The majority of those serious pro's who will login here, are management or owners. Maybe they are looking for an angle, because they get paid to think, instead of doing. Working guys are banging the clock, and they are done, period, till the next day.

    There are exceptions to that, no doubt. We have some real talent participate here. I would say they are equal to the very few guys who take home service/technical manuals for a little light reading at night.

    So as we slide down the forum section into machine specific, and manual machines. As a group, its diverse in skill and knowledge. Retired journeymen, hobbyist, novice-journeyman trying to set up at home/their own shop, guys who do it as side work vs full time, and so on.

    Due to that knowledge diversity, and guys who WANT to be here. Guys who WANT to learn and share. We try our best to make it as interesting and friendly as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I would guess the deeper learning/sharing of working pro's that you are asking for would be near the top of the forums under the main section "Manufacturing today". With CNC, Shop Management, Manufacturing etc.

    One large issue is most real professionals, journeyman and mid-range talent, actively working in a legit shop will never log in, will never read it. Guys working on the floor, really making it happen 8-12 hour shifts will never spend their free time at home to talk about work for free. They are slamming beers or relaxing with their lady.

    The majority of those serious pro's who will login here, are management or owners. Maybe they are looking for an angle, because they get paid to think, instead of doing. Working guys are banging the clock, and they are done, period, till the next day.

    There are exceptions to that, no doubt. We have some real talent participate here. I would say they are equal to the very few guys who take home service/technical manuals for a little light reading at night.

    So as we slide down the forum section into machine specific, and manual machines. As a group, its diverse in skill and knowledge. Retired journeymen, hobbyist, novice-journeyman trying to set up at home/their own shop, guys who do it as side work vs full time, and so on.

    Due to that knowledge diversity, and guys who WANT to be here. Guys who WANT to learn and share. We try our best to make it as interesting and friendly as possible.
    Sr. year, HS mate ask me why, as a Merit Scholar already 10th grade, 20-plus colleges chasing, I am surely going to College, so WHY TF I am spending just over HALF the total school hours "down in the metal shop with the dummies?"

    I was actually shocked he didn't realize how whip-sharp those guys were at solving problems, nor that ALL of them were making good money already while still in HS as farriers, ornamental Iron workers, auto body men, construction workers, HVAC guys, and mechanics, etc. etc. etc. family biz or relatives.. but not-only.

    So I asked Pete if he expected - as I did - to work to PAY for college.

    Sure enough. He would be waiting tables, Wildwood, NJ, summertimes for reduced min wage, plus whatever tips other College kids threw his way. Read "square root of sod-all".

    Fine, Pete you do that.

    I'll be knocking down Union scale as a Machinist, night shift, all year, not "summer job" and still a full time (23 cr hrs) student during the day.

    As came to pass.

    Not only did I NOT PLAN a career at the tool-tip, dropped Engineering a year and a half in once I realized Engineers were just folks one HIRED, same as house painters or plumbers.

    The freedom of action and direction b'long "decision makers". Which also turned out to pay better as well as being more fun. Most especially "in uniform".

    So why am I HERE?

    Where else d'you still find those guys that are smarter than you about SOMETHING instead of stoopider about EVERYTHING?

    I only ever did have the ONE pair of eyes!

    Gots to learn how to borrow - and understand - the view through the milliards of OTHER eyes .... if you want to not be blindsided by an ignorant unattended garbidge truck slipping its parking brakes and obeying decisions of utmost gravity. Whether it's queer for cameras and fleeting fame on TV news or never.


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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Now that's what I'm talking about ! He jokes. He breaks balls. But he keeps it light and fun, knowing the guys with Monarchs will be over here talking about mills too.
    Why would you edit my post and then quote what you typed like it was mine?


    If that offends you, you should try a different site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I would guess the deeper learning/sharing of working pro's that you are asking for would be near the top of the forums under the main section "Manufacturing today". With CNC, Shop Management, Manufacturing etc.

    One large issue is most real professionals, journeyman and mid-range talent, actively working in a legit shop will never log in, will never read it. Guys working on the floor, really making it happen 8-12 hour shifts will never spend their free time at home to talk about work for free. They are slamming beers or relaxing with their lady.

    The majority of those serious pro's who will login here, are management or owners. Maybe they are looking for an angle, because they get paid to think, instead of doing. Working guys are banging the clock, and they are done, period, till the next day.

    There are exceptions to that, no doubt. We have some real talent participate here. I would say they are equal to the very few guys who take home service/technical manuals for a little light reading at night.

    So as we slide down the forum section into machine specific, and manual machines. As a group, its diverse in skill and knowledge. Retired journeymen, hobbyist, novice-journeyman trying to set up at home/their own shop, guys who do it as side work vs full time, and so on.

    Due to that knowledge diversity, and guys who WANT to be here. Guys who WANT to learn and share. We try our best to make it as interesting and friendly as possible.
    Based on your join date it doesn't appear you have been here all that long. Don hasn't been all that active here the last few years, but the ideals that he created this site with and guided it along for a decade or so are quite a bit different than how you just laid it out there.

    All are welcome on this site, but it is professional first. That's what makes it worthwhile. The hobby guys can come here and get real factual shit from people that have been there done that.

    The thing I think you're missing is that those "been there done that" guys don't want a fluffy snowflake welcome hobbyists galore environment to contribute in. The BS gets too thick. The level of information shared gets dumbed down and the real useful stuff is lost.

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    To some extent I agree with Garwood. I’m not a pro machinist, although I occasionally make some cash from my shop. I come here for knowledge from experts, or at least people who have hard won experience. In the small areas I can contribute, I do. And I agree, the professional, respectful vibe Don fostered for years has been sadly missing lately. I hope the new mod here will keep personal attacks off this site.

    L7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Why would you edit my post and then quote what you typed like it was mine?


    If that offends you, you should try a different site.
    In this thread, this very same thread, post #1, check out rule 4.

    In the short term, do to recent events, inflammatory, snarky, or otherwise rude comments will be edited out. To anyone who has been paying attention, I just don't see how I can explain it any better. In the near term, it is the greatest problem, that we are trying to correct.

    Long term, which content and at what level ? . . . That is so much more up to all of you. All of you contribute. You start the threads. You reply. You give details. All of you give advice, post links, provide content, pics etc.

    You want stronger, heavier content ? Make it happen. Post something useful.
    Last edited by texasgunsmith; 10-10-2020 at 10:43 AM.

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    So is Gorton machinery (became a part of K&T) "old iron", or "antique"? Can other mfr's (orphans) be added to the "old Iron" category, or just the ones listed in post #1?

    Due to current events #1, #2 and #3 had me laughing, thanks for that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
    So is Gorton machinery (became a part of K&T) "old iron", or "antique"? Can other mfr's (orphans) be added to the "old Iron" category, or just the ones listed in post #1?

    Due to current events #1, #2 and #3 had me laughing, thanks for that!
    Absolutely Gorton. I've not owned one, but many who rip on Bridgeports recommend them. I don't have any problem with ANY usa made industrial stuff being listed here. Surely the actual weight of some machines set them apart, but its not just actual weight.

    In general, USA made industrial machines were made with higher quality irons and steels which give the nick-name and/or feeling of Heavy. Van Norman being a perfect example. Not all VN were physically large, but all VN are welcome here. VN was even wrote into the section title, and not by me.

    As such, the others are welcome here also. I'd just need several pages to write all the manufactures out, if a gun was to my head.

    American made, industrial its all good to post here. I would ask that the machines with specific sections, Bridgeport, Monarch etc to post directly in those sections. Obvious antique stuff, should be posted there for sure, hand cranks, foot pedals etc . Outside of that, op's discretion, here or Antique section.

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    I know I need to be censored "I am awful" so, instead of hogging these subjects, like the pig I am, and I seek the truth, I say give the amateurs a chance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I will listen, instead of talk from now on, no need to censor any more on me!, I promise! I am listening!

    Congrats! off to a great start!

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I know I need to be censored "I am awful" so, instead of hogging these subjects, like the pig I am, and I seek the truth, I say give the amateurs a chance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I will listen, instead of talk from now on, no need to censor any more on me!, I promise! I am listening!

    Congrats! off to a great start!
    You are absolutely welcome here. Your contributions have been significant, and much appreciated. I whole heartedly welcome more.

    Though current events have been extreme, it's not you. A general lack of respect and decency in society has been prevalent more recently. Also in these forums as whole. People are quick to anger and get abusive. Its unnecessary, un-helpful, and really no fun at all.

    As grown, thinking men, we are going to start correcting that. Starting here, in this section.

    You want to post and not have it ruined ? Ignore any rude comment, and I will clean it up when I sit down. Over some time, I think we'll be able to come in and share in a positive manner.


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