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    "Simple spreadsheet" Bob?
    I appreciate you going through all the trouble of making it. Making that spreadsheet might be simple enough for you but I wouldn't know where to begin.
    Thanks,
    Andy

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    Default Worm and Worm Wheel Measurements 2HL Low Lead Attachment

    Hi all: I measured some of the gears that run my low lead attachment for my 2hl universal.. Hope someone can use this info.. Ramsay 1
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails worm.jpg   wormwheel.jpg   womwheel-1.jpg   worm-1.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsay1 View Post
    Hi all: I measured some of the gears that run my low lead attachment for my 2hl universal.. Hope someone can use this info.. Ramsay 1
    Ramsay1, You made my day. I really appreciate you measuring them. I ran the numbers in Bobs program. That's the .100" I've been looking for these last few days. Now I can use the numbers from the 1:24 for the 1:3 and wrap this thing up.

    Send me your PayPal, I want to buy you a beer.
    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Shop View Post


    Ramsay1, You made my day. I really appreciate you measuring them. I ran the numbers in Bobs program. That's the .100" I've been looking for these last few days. Now I can use the numbers from the 1:24 for the 1:3 and wrap this thing up.

    Send me your PayPal, I want to buy you a beer.
    Andy
    Hey hope it helps! No worries think of it as an early Christmas present on me.. Cheers Ramsay 1

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    I'm finally at the point of gathering the material and tools to make these gears for the 2hl and have a couple more questions. The numbers match perfect with Ramsays measured gears.

    I can cut the 8TPI worm easy enough on the lathe. Is it ok to gash the 96T worm wheel with a 25P #2 14.5pa cutter. Then, finish hob with a 3/4"-8 acme tap or should a 25p hob only be used?

    1:96
    8TPI
    single start worm
    lead = .125"
    addendum=.040"
    DP= 25.133
    Wheel PD= 3.820"
    Worm PD=1.796"
    worm OD=1.876"
    whole depth of worm=.086"
    worm lead angle = 1.269*
    wheel throat dia. =3.899"

    The 24T wheels for 1:24 & 1:3 are the same size but have different lead angles. My plan is gash, then hob.
    I picked up a NIB Ash Gear 6NDP 14.5pa hob yesterday. Is a class a "D" hob good enough for these gears?
    I haven't figured out how I'm going to mill the 8 start worm with the 3.768" lead or the other worm with the .471" lead yet.

    1:24
    single start
    lead.471"
    worm addendum=.150"
    DP=6.676
    wheel PD=3.595"
    worm PD=2.021"
    worm OD=2.321"
    worm whole depth=.323"
    worm lead angle=4.239*
    wheel throat dia. = 3.895"
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails image.jpg   image.jpg  

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    6NDP 14.5pa hob yesterday. Is a class a "D" hob good enough for these gears?
    6 DP has .5236 lead, so seems unlikely

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    6 DP has .5236 lead, so seems unlikely
    Thanks John. Still lots to learn here.
    I "assumed" that a hob would generate all gear teeth with any lead and teeth. Now I'm seeing that's not right. 3.1416/6p=.5236 lead.

    So.... the lead hob has to match the lead of the gear. A hob with a 6.676dp will cut all teeth in ONLY that DP. (.4705 lead).

    Am I getting this right?
    The only way to make these worm gears is to make a hob with a .471" lead? It's chicken and egg at this point. I need the 1:3 & 1:24 gear set to cut the .471" & 3.768" leads.
    Andy

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    Am I getting this right?
    Yep, them's the facts. Math rules every aspect

    A 6DP hob will do its damnedest to cut a wheel with .5236 lead (or CP)

    If that isn't what is wanted, it don't care and just makes scrap - like no teeth at all after several revolutions

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    I'm hitting a wall on these K&T 2HL 1:3 worm & wheel. The 1st gear shop took one look and said no way. He didn't know of anyone that could do it either. I went to shop #2 this afternoon, a big outfit that claims on their web site to have 85yrs experience in making gears. He also took one look and said it's not going to happen at his place either. He only knows of one place that could make the 8 start worm and they're in Chicago. He said they would thread grind the whole worm out of solid. Anyone have any ideas?

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    Welcome to Gears 430 where everyone wants to play and no one wants to pay, but Math is King of the Day.

    Typically, the OEM will have tooling made to their specs and desires, kept on hand, and sharpened as needed. This should be Hobbed, or Thread Milled, but Grinding is perfectly acceptable, albeit a bit overkill for your desires. Mostly due to the economics of it.

    Your best bet if you insist on doing it yourself is to do it the way they most likely did in a pinch. On a Horizontal Mill, using a universal dividing head and gears to drive it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Shop View Post
    Is a class a "D" hob good enough for these gears?
    Not even the same ball park. Not even the same kind of ball park. "D" Class Hobs are lowest of the low, barely qualifying to be "not scrap" and used solely for preparation of subsequent operations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Welcome to Gears 430 where everyone wants to play and no one wants to pay, but Math is King of the Day.

    Typically, the OEM will have tooling made to their specs and desires, kept on hand, and sharpened as needed. This should be Hobbed, or Thread Milled, but Grinding is perfectly acceptable, albeit a bit overkill for your desires. Mostly due to the economics of it.

    Your best bet if you insist on doing it yourself is to do it the way they most likely did in a pinch. On a Horizontal Mill, using a universal dividing head and gears to drive it.
    I have no problem paying to get the job done. That's why I went to 2 local gear shops and neither could do it. If the price was right, I would've had them do all 3 sets. 1:3 , 1:24 & 1:96
    Would you like to quote the job?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Shop View Post
    Would you like to quote the job?
    I wouldn't mind, but I wouldn't be able to get to it for a while. Jobs like this one are a time suck and very rarely bring the monetary equivalent of what they require in effort and time. So they get placed in the "when we can" bin, as opposed to the "they need it right now" bin and the "crank out the chips" bins. We are busier than ever right now and it is not looking like it will let up for a while. We're running 8 - 10 week lead times on normal jobs, with little pockets of time for emergency jobs and favors.

    I don't mean to imply that _you_ don't want to pay. Rather, generally speaking, people typically don't want to pay what these types of jobs actually require. They have a number in their head that is based on their comfort level and ignorance of what's actually involved. When they get the price they feel ( and often act ) like someone is trying to rob them or otherwise take advantage. And just as often they'll then launch into a rant to others, about it. Seen and experienced it more times than I can count. If we did it, I'd charge appropriately. You've gotten a better idea of what's involved by now, so you're better prepared. Why didn't you have them done by the shop the second shop recommended?

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    We're running 8 - 10 week lead times on normal jobs, with little pockets of time for emergency jobs and favors.
    Good, because I'm running 3 months behind on all my projects. Whenever it's finished, it's finished.

    Why didn't you have them done by the shop the second shop recommended?[/QUOTE]
    Just got the recommendation today and still sorting out my options.

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    Muncher making one 12 years ago.

    Making a worm and gear set??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Welcome to Gears 430 where everyone wants to play and no one wants to pay, but Math is King of the Day.

    Typically, the OEM will have tooling made to their specs and desires, kept on hand, and sharpened as needed. This should be Hobbed, or Thread Milled, but Grinding is perfectly acceptable, albeit a bit overkill for your desires. Mostly due to the economics of it.

    Your best bet if you insist on doing it yourself is to do it the way they most likely did in a pinch. On a Horizontal Mill, using a universal dividing head and gears to drive it.
    Put a cork in it, zahnrad. I'm getting pretty tired of yuppies pretending to be "craftsmen." How the hell do you plan to cut a wormgear on a thread mill ? And grinding, yeah right, you're going to fit a 1" diameter wheel onto a reishauer ? shee-it. Kids these days. All mouth, no brain.

    O.P., this is pretty easy for a gear shop that employs machinists rather than yuppies. You need a hobbing machine with tangential feed. (You don't actually need one but it's the easiest way.) Single tooth cutter and bob's yer uncle.

    Quick rundown : IN PRODUCTION you would have a hob made that matched the worm. It would be a tad larger for clearance and also for wear and resharpening over time. Basically, a worm with teeth.* You'd feed this radially into the wormgear blank. Same principle as hobbing a spur gear, but no axial travel, just straight infeed so you get what's called a single-enveloping wormgear. That is, it conforms to the shape of the worm in the axial plane. In a double-enveloping worm set, the worm itself has an hourglass shape, so the mating parts confrom in the axial AND the radial planes. Those are a bitch and require special machinery (altho once again, if you have a brain you can do it in normal hobbing machinery, but no fun). Wormgears are a trip. Like spurs with an added bit of interest

    The trouble for you is that to cut a straight infeed wormgear you need a matching hob. Last time I did something like this it was 26 weeks and $500 to have a hob built. You can do it faster and cheaper now in China - accruacy is good but the material is poo - but still. That's not very convenient.

    So. Hobbing machine with tangential feed - this can be done with a hob (made to match the wormgear you will produce) OR it can be done with a single-tooth cutter. Single tooth is easy. It's just a rack tooth of the form you need.

    Are you familiar with hobbing machines ? Process is this : imagine a hobbing machine set up to cut a worm - hob is centered in the blank, but in this case is completely out of mesh, moved laterally away from the blank but the center distance is set to the finish size. Now you move the hob slowly through the mesh along the axis of the hob spindle. You hob is moving tangentially through the mesh, as both parts rotate.

    Sorry, it's harder to describe than it is to do. Hope you get the idea.

    This makes more accurate wormgears than infeeding and is sometimes done with hobs BUT the cool part is, you can put a single tooth in a simple arbor - kind of like those old boring bars with a square hole in them, and a chunk of high-speed steel - and slowly advance the single tooth through the blank.

    This is the normal way to cut one-off wormgears. Many hobbers have tangential feed. Every cnc hobber (that I know of, there's probably a cheapy out there somewhere waiting to make a liar out of me) have tangential feed. The Type T Barber-Colman not only has tangential feed, it can do a bunch of other weird stuff to make asymetric tooth forms and other strange crap. If you can find a shop with a T, then the guy knows what he is doing.

    Sorry I can't point you to a place to help you. It's not a big deal (if, like I said, you can find a machinist rather than a self-important yuppy). In the San Francisco area Howard Boom would routinely do stuff like this, but he's dead. Dan in Oakland definitely can do it but he's about 36,000 hours behind already. Danny Borg in Redwood City probably could but last I heard he hated back-stabbing customers and wanted to run away as far from creeps as possible. I think Custom Gear could do tangential but don't know if they even still exist. And they were a little ... err ... maybe not so wonderful to deal with. Harbold is gone. Renstrom is gone. That guy on Minna Street in SF is gone. American Precision could do this for sure but they are running $350,000 hobbers so machine time is kinda high there. There were a bunch of people in LA but that's been a while too. Lenny Epstein could give you ten names but also, alas, Lenny is with the other New Joisey machinery dealers in the sky, puffin on a ceegar and woikin' up some kinda deal.

    Damned if I know what to suggest, seems like there must be some old codger back in the hills who still understands gear cutting. Search for someone with a type T Barber maybe ? The Gear Works up in Seattle does great work on big wormgears but again, in today's world I don't know if they can afford to do onesy-twosies. Remember - for every job we send overseas, there will be three or four better jobs created at home. As long as you are a drone and only want what Big Brother has decided to sell you, anyhow.

    Good luck, hope this helped, at least you know what to ask for now - "Can you cut a one-off wormgear with a single-tooth cutter by the tangential method ?" if the shop says 'Sure !' then you've got your man.

    p.s. You could do this on a cnc lathe with live tooling, maybe, or on a mill with a fourth axis and some clever programming, but that would also cost a bundle. There must be someone left who knows how to cut one-off gears in the US ? Someone, somewhere ?

    * btw, if you are crazy and can't find any other way, you could make your own wormgear hob by making an oversized worm out of something hardenable - I've even used 8620. Gash it, then relieve the teeth. You can even do this by hand with a dumore (I'm assuming you don't have a relieving lathe handy ?). This will be good enough for a few parts. You can make it accurate, it just won't cut very well and won't have much life because resharpening will mess up the accuracy (no relieving lathe). But still, it would work. I'd find a guy with a hobber for cutting but in theory you could do the old "rough in the teeth with a single-cutter, then use the hob for finishing" trick. You're supposed to let the part freewheel while you lower your hob into the part to finish. I've never had the testicular fortitude to try this but if you have a horizontal with dividing head and extra time and want to give it a whirl, why not ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Put a cork in it, zahnrad. I'm getting pretty tired of yuppies pretending to be "craftsmen." How the hell do you plan to cut a wormgear on a thread mill ? And grinding, yeah right, you're going to fit a 1" diameter wheel onto a reishauer ? shee-it. Kids these days. All mouth, no brain.

    O.P., this is pretty easy for a gear shop that employs machinists rather than yuppies. You need a hobbing machine with tangential feed. (You don't actually need one but it's the easiest way.) Single tooth cutter and bob's yer uncle.
    Holy shite, I have not laughed that hard in a very long time. Thank you, SeaMoss. That was very humorous. If your intent was to get people to laugh, then you have succeeded. In spades. That was awesome.


    Sadly, it was equally ignorant.



    Frankly, for someone that chooses to create a brand new login solely for the purposes of self aggrandizement at the expense of others you come across like not very unlike Life, as described by MacBeth -

    "Life's but a waking shadow, a poor player,
    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
    And then s heard no more. It is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing.
    "

    Even the most ignorant neophyte apprentice could tell you that an old, clapped out Lees Bradner can Thread Mill the Worm being discussed. And quite easily, too...


    Of course, you could very well just not be overly knowledgable and so not really understand that a good Universal Horizontal Milling Machine kitted with a Universal Dividing Head and the gear train to drive it can do the very same. In case you might want to actually learn something, you can start reading about it in Cincinnati's "A Treatise On Milling And Milling Machines" on page 342 of the 14th edition. ( page 310 of the 1916 printing ) Of course, if you don't even know that basic information, then pointing out the fact that Gear Grinders come in many sizes ( and that Reishauer is but one brand of many ) likely won't help you much to begin with.

    Unfortunately, it almost appears that you might actually have had some entry level knowledge at some point. But even that is obviously very sorely and sadly out of date, given your statement that -
    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Last time I did something like this it was 26 weeks and $500 to have a hob built.
    I remember those times, too. It appears that one of us made the choice to keep evolving and learning, though. These days one can have the most custom of Hobs manufactured in 4 weeks or less, depending on need and wallet. But that would require you to be dragged into the 90's or 00's and it doesn't appear you'd be very willing. Your loss. Not ours. And that's a shame, because it seems that we are acquainted with some of the same people. ( though I have to admit your ignorance of some of the basic processes is slightly bewildering )

    I am not sure why you take offense to my efforts to use of proper grammar. I like to try to insure that someone can easily understand a concept conveyed, or idea described. ( Does proper English offend you, somehow? ) But to make such assumptions as you have about me is hilarious to me, in itself. ( and I am positive that is is just as humorous to many here on the forum that I interact with, in real life, and a daily basis ) "Yuppie"? "Pretending"? "Kid"? That's just so rich... Seriously... Rich...

    But... then again... Just the fact that you felt the need to create an account to attack someone in effort to stroke yourself says more than enough. A friendly suggestion in your own vernacular, in effort to make it easy for you to comprehend - put a cork in your penis warmer until you actually know what you are speaking about, and with whom.

    I could go on, but frankly I don't have any need to carry on a pissing match with you. It is blisteringly obvious that you are prone to outbursts of instability and fond of assumptions. Pigs, dancing, mud, and all that...

    Have a good night, sirrah. In other words, "Bye, Felicia."

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  21. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Shop View Post
    I'm hitting a wall on these K&T 2HL 1:3 worm & wheel. The 1st gear shop took one look and said no way. He didn't know of anyone that could do it either. I went to shop #2 this afternoon, a big outfit that claims on their web site to have 85yrs experience in making gears. He also took one look and said it's not going to happen at his place either. He only knows of one place that could make the 8 start worm and they're in Chicago. He said they would thread grind the whole worm out of solid. Anyone have any ideas?
    Ask Les at Gearles in Costa mesa california, he's made worm gears for me in the past, in quantities of 1-2 at very reasonable prices. I'm not saying he can do them, but if he could probably wouldn't break the bank.

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    in the interests of accuracy and for future generations ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Even the most ignorant neophyte apprentice could tell you that an old, clapped out Lees Bradner can Thread Mill the Worm being discussed. And quite easily, too...
    He isn't having a problem making a new worm. He is having a problem making the wormgear. This is not the same thing at all. He can easily make a worm in an engine lathe.


    Of course, you could very well just not be overly knowledgable and so not really understand that a good Universal Horizontal Milling Machine kitted with a Universal Dividing Head and the gear train to drive it can do the very same.
    It's conceivable, but it would be a bitch. And it's not "the same" by any stretch of the imagination. You could hack something up that way which would (sort of) work but it wouldn't really roll well.

    Theoretically, to tangentially feed a cutter through a wormgear blank with a horizontal mill would give you a correct tooth shape but I am not so sure you could make everything fit. The setup would be very kittywompus.

    The hack-and-burn blacksmith methods you refer to using numbered cutters and all that do sort of give you gear teeth but having a guy do the parts on a hobber would give better results. And I got the impression he wanted nice teeth, or he'd already be out in the garage hammering and chiselling. This is a wormgear, not a helical. (Not to mention that milled helicals aren't that cool either)

    In case you might want to actually learn something, you can start reading about it in Cincinnati's "A Treatise On Milling And Milling Machines" on page 342 of the 14th edition. ( page 310 of the 1916 printing ) Of course, if you don't even know that basic information, then pointing out the fact that Gear Grinders come in many sizes ( and that Reishauer is but one brand of many ) likely won't help you much to begin with.
    Yeah yeah yeah. Here, bigmouth : you name a single threaded wheel grinder that can accomodate a 1 or 2" diameter wheel. It's bullshit. You can't make a wormgear on a gear grinder. (Bold statement, 99% chance someone somewhere in the wilds of Czechoslovakia built a machine to do just that. But in general terms, no. No commonly-available machine will do that.)

    And even if you could, you'd be an idiot to do so because grinding bronze is not a great idea. You get particles of grinding wheel embedded in the metal which makes for a short and unpleasant life.


    You're full of poo, Mr Yuppy. I actually did this work in a shop for thirty years before "retiring" to sales. Doing two and three meter double-helicals now on Hofler grinders. They won't grind wormgears either ... oh wait. Maybe the Rapid would, it's strange ... but no way could you get a 1" dia wheel on that thing. And like the rest of your ideas, it would be a very loong way around the problem. Tangential feed, that's what it was invented for. Easy.


    @ triumph : Les is still around ? he must be almost as old as me :-) Okay choice, Les is a decent guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    @ triumph : Les is still around ? he must be almost as old as me :-) Okay choice, Les is a decent guy.
    Still around, I haven't talked to him since he left Action Gear. Did great work for us.


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