15k spindle motor alarms out above 10k, especially when changing it with the overide
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  1. #1
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    Default 15k spindle motor alarms out above 10k, especially when changing it with the overide

    It is a 10hp 15k Yaskawa with a lot of hours on it. It is a 2001 that supposedly ran 24/365 for 10 years before I bought it in 2013. The spindle inverter, a VS-626M5, was repaired in 2012 but I have no idea what went wrong. When I bought it the inverter had the spindle speed programmed to 6k. It took a while to figure this out but once I did I figured it was because the spindle was getting due for a rebuild. I finally rebuilt the spindle last year and got a reader/ Digital Operator to change inverter programming so I was able to increase the spindle speed. It runs fairly fine up to 10k and will run up to 15k sometimes without alarming but 10k and above if you change the speed down with the override knob it immediately alarms out. Below are my notes when I ran the motor with it on the machine but not attached to the spindle.

    Ran spindle motor without the coupling attached up to 15k from 7500 using the override. While it was not silent the bearings don't sound too bad.
    Load at 15k fluctuated between 16-24%. When I dropped it down to 90% with the override it alarmed out. Here is the list of alarms:

    3421 : (11) Inverter Unit Alarm (S1)
    3395 : (10) Converter Alarm (S1)
    3404 : (F4) Converter Alarm (A)
    3403 : (F4) Converter Alarm (Z)
    3402 : (F4) Converter Alarm (Y)
    3401 : (F4) Converter Alarm (X)
    3201 : Servo Alarm (S1)
    3104 : Servo Alarm (A)
    3103 : Servo Alarm (Z)
    3102 : Servo Alarm (Y)
    3101 : Servo Alarm (X)
    3100 : Servo Alarm
    3000 : Servo Off


    Electronics are not my strong point but I do know enough not to cause more problems and would prefer to figure it out with your help. If not then it is time to find a tech to diagnose it, but I am about 1hr from the eastern edge of Portland OR so travel will be a significant part of the bill, especially since the only tech I know is on the southwest edge of Portland.

    Any help is most appreciated.

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    Have you downloaded the manual for the spindle inverter? It would be available on Yaskawa.com for free PDF download. They should have a troubleshooting guide in them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Have you downloaded the manual for the spindle inverter? It would be available on Yaskawa.com for free PDF download. They should have a troubleshooting guide in them.
    Probably have but know where it is if I haven't, and didn't think about that, thanks!

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    I don't have a manual for that drive, but those alarms look like what would be shown of the CRT. What alarms are on the spindle drive?

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    Ok, I have the spindle drive users manual open. None of the motor faults with corrective action sound like what I have. I have the inverter and converter alarm tables open and will get the machine to alarm out so I can see what shows up on the drive.

    Yes, those alarms came from the CRT. I didn't think to get them from the drive at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    I don't have a manual for that drive, but those alarms look like what would be shown of the CRT. What alarms are on the spindle drive?
    That was what I was getting at when I asked if he had the manual for the spindle drive, I should have explained myself.

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    not running on a phase converter is it?

    That or a lack of a braking resistor are my only ideas

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    A 2004 PP 10hp with new caps. I don't think this is a new problem and my other mill is an older Yaskawa controlled one that runs fine.

    Not to be presumptuous but here is the link to the drive manual just in case. Section 12 page 5 is where the alarm list starts.

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    The control will just tell you that the drive has an alarm. The alarm it has will be displayed on the drive somehow.

    A lot of those alarms have nothing to do with the spindle drive. The spindle motor getting up around max power and/or hard decel would point me towards a power problem.

    Got good, solid wire connections everywhere with properly sized conductors?

    I know the PP's are supposed to be rated fine to power their nameplate HP, but if you have a 10HP spindle running at 10HP you also have fans, pumps and the servos are usually a few HP each. The machine should have a KVA rating on it somewhere. That number is going to be theoretical worse case scenario, but the PP should be rated for atleast 3/4 of that number to feed the machine enough juice.

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    I don't know if your drive is regenerative or uses braking resistors. I can tell you for a fact that despite their claims PP do NOT like to absorb regen power, elspecially if your mains voltage is in the mid to high 240s. Go into your drive parameters and either turn down the regen limit if like a Fanuc or simply decrease the deceleration rate of the drive.

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    Well, I can't get the spindle drive to fault and shut everything down but I am getting a 1005 machine alarm that is: Thermal Trip (power panel) oil cooler is abnormal, Inverter is abnormal. Method of release is Thermal reset for the first two and Inverter reset for the Inverter. A dead way lube pump motor will trip this alarm by tripping the starter, which isn't the case today. I must shut down all power except for the mains to reset whatever is getting tripped. The spindle cooler is not affected.

    I looked at the alarm memory on the drive and it shows 2 alarms for the six total is holds in memory, I have no idea when these faults happened last. They do not change positions when I get a 1005 machine alarm. They are Alarm-10, which is Converter Fault, a fault occurred in the converter unit, check fault contents by using Converter LED. The converter led does not change after a 1005 machine alarm. Alarm-11 is Main circuit overvoltage, main circuit DC bus voltage exceeded the overvoltage set value.

    The digital operator that I use to communicate with the inverter only shows 3 screens, the pdf I got from Kitamura on using the digital operator says I should get 6 modes including one for (alarm display) and one for (previous alarm display), I don't get the alarm display mode.

    This machine is my 2001 Kitamura Mycenter 1Xi with a Yasnac J300 control. It is supposed to get 200 volt 3 phase and I feed it 218 volt 3 phase from my DPC-A10 PP, new caps last summer, that has the single-phase voltage bucked down. My older Enshu wants 220 volts so that explains my setup. I have had my machines since 2004 and then 2013 with this setup and don't have any weird issues with power, at least not from my transformer and PP.

    The tag on the cabinet says 200/220 volts, 50/60 hz and 15 kva.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    ...has the single-phase voltage bucked down.

    The tag on the cabinet says 200/220 volts, 50/60 hz and 15 kva.
    Transformers before phase converters aren't the best way to go about it. If you put the transformer on the machine, after the on switch you get better overall efficiency.

    15 KVA is roughly 15 HP of juice if you're going by the PP way of rating stuff. So lets say you need 75% of that to run your machine. That's still more than the 10HP your PP is rated for.

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    With everyone questioning your phase converter how long did the machine run off it, without incident?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    With everyone questioning your phase converter how long did the machine run off it, without incident?
    As I said earlier I have never had any issues with power in my shop. I have often had the Kitamura running production while I go back and run a small 3ph lathe with never an issue. I suspect the spindle motor problem predates me getting the machine. When I mentioned this to Kitamura phone tech while getting his help with my spindle rebuild he said it sounded like low resistance if memory serves.

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    Has it ever been able to decel from 15K since you sorted out the whole 6000 rpm thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Transformers before phase converters aren't the best way to go about it. If you put the transformer on the machine, after the on switch you get better overall efficiency.

    15 KVA is roughly 15 HP of juice if you're going by the PP way of rating stuff. So lets say you need 75% of that to run your machine. That's still more than the 10HP your PP is rated for.
    The PP will trip out for overcurrent before it will deliver goofy looking power. I don't know about the new ones but the old blue ones will deliver way more power than they are rated for.....regen is a different story.

    It's not uncommon for a 10HP PP to drive 2 machines with 10 HP spindles at the same time. Maybe not running 120% load on both but not exactly driving Miss Daisy either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    The PP will trip out for overcurrent before it will deliver goofy looking power. I don't know about the new ones but the old blue ones will deliver way more power than they are rated for.....regen is a different story.

    It's not uncommon for a 10HP PP to drive 2 machines with 10 HP spindles at the same time. Maybe not running 120% load on both but not exactly driving Miss Daisy either.
    The Enshu is a 5hp spindle and draws a bit less total load than the Kitamura, I have always wondered if it would handle both at the same time. But, not gona try it to find out the hard way. Too scared of doing something to the old PP, no more support and you got the card that died the last time I tried running two machines on it.

    The last time the spindle alarmed out and shut down was when I missed the S15000 in an old program. It pretty much got to 15k then alarmed out. I don't think it is a regen problem. I used to program spindle speeds 2.5 times what I wanted since 6k is 2.5 times less than 15. Now I have to go back through all of my programs and change the spindle speeds accordingly, even every CAM program I want to run. Talk about a PITA!

    I am trying to get some parts done now and will play with alarming it out at the end of the day. I have been playing with the digital operator and can't get more than the three menus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    The Enshu is a 5hp spindle and draws a bit less total load than the Kitamura, I have always wondered if it would handle both at the same time. But, not gona try it to find out the hard way. Too scared of doing something to the old PP, no more support and you got the card that died the last time I tried running two machines on it.

    The last time the spindle alarmed out and shut down was when I missed the S15000 in an old program. It pretty much got to 15k then alarmed out. I don't think it is a regen problem. I used to program spindle speeds 2.5 times what I wanted since 6k is 2.5 times less than 15. Now I have to go back through all of my programs and change the spindle speeds accordingly, even every CAM program I want to run. Talk about a PITA!

    I am trying to get some parts done now and will play with alarming it out at the end of the day. I have been playing with the digital operator and can't get more than the three menus.
    Believe it or not I'm still playing around with them trying to figure them out. I've come a long ways but still have much further to go. If I can be of any help or you just want someone to bounce some ideas off shoot me a PM and I'll send you my cell number. Good luck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    The PP will trip out for overcurrent before it will deliver goofy looking power. I don't know about the new ones but the old blue ones will deliver way more power than they are rated for.....regen is a different story.

    It's not uncommon for a 10HP PP to drive 2 machines with 10 HP spindles at the same time. Maybe not running 120% load on both but not exactly driving Miss Daisy either.
    OK, that's all swell and dandy, but if you have a big choke point before the PP like a step down transformer you might not be getting all the pixies you need.

    What's the step down transformer KVA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    OK, that's all swell and dandy, but if you have a big choke point before the PP like a step down transformer you might not be getting all the pixies you need.

    What's the step down transformer KVA?
    It is a Dongan 85-M050 which is 1.5 kva 24v. I bought it from PP when I bought the phase converter so they sized it.


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