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2000 Emco 365MC w/ Siemens 840D many questions

tome9999

Aluminum
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
I have a model year 2000 Emco 365MC with a Siemens 840D controller. The machine has a sub-spindle, Y-axis, and live tooling on a 12 position turret (above/behind the spindle). I have retrofitted and used machines with Linuxcnc (and a tiny bit of Mach 3 on an older Fadal) but this is my first experience with a commercial controller. So not much baggage to bring along to my Siemens learning curve. :)

I have been spending some quality time with the machine and the Emco and Siemens manuals that I have. The manuals are mostly reference manuals, not a lot of practical use information or “how to” in them. It is slow going but I am patient and making progress. I am now mostly familiar with navigating the control, I am able to load programs from a pc or enter in commands in MDA(aka MDI). But, needless to say, I have many questions.

I have quite a few tool holders on the turret, but at the moment only have one actual cutting tool to play with. I need to order tooling. The tool I do have is a 55-degree DCMT insert type in a holder facing backwards so it can do profiles on the main spindle. I think this is considered a right-hand tool as on an old school lathe the tool cutting face would be on the left side and it would cut moving right to left. However since the turret is above and behind the spindle it is flipped over. I have holders that can accommodate either left or right handed orientation of tooling for either spindle. I will have to be careful that spindle direction is correct for any given tool.

Anyway, to my first question...setting up tool length offsets. The machine’s tool reference point is in the dead center of the turret of a given tool position. How does one determine the offset in Z from tool tip to reference point? I have seen examples of first touching off the tool tip and then the face of the turret to the end of a workpiece to measure the offset, but that doesn’t help because a) my reference point isn’t on the turret face and b) I can’t get the turret down far enough in X to touch the face even if I wanted to. The X travel interferes with the sub-spindle before the turret gets down far enough.

In the Emco manual they say they have tools available for easy tool referencing. Anyone know what these are or look like? I see there are instructions to “scratch” a workpiece to determine lengths but don’t I first need to enter the tip and reference point offset before doing that?

Also, I was playing around with trying to do some measuring by pinching a piece of paper between the tool and workpiece. However, I need three hands to do this! When the door is open, and I have the key in special mode, I still have to hold the consent key in order to jog the machine. I can’t hold consent key, and the jog buttons, and hold the paper too... Am I missing something about operation with the door open? How is one supposed to do that?

Tom
 
take the chuck off and measure the mounting surface to a front surface you can scratch on the chuck. now when you need to get a z offset just scratch the surface off the chuck and if I remember right there will be a button that you can toggle with the smiley face x y z and then insert a ref dimension. just toggle to z and enter the chuck length. and for x measure the bar and scratch the tool in x. but If I remmeber right use the radius of the bar in the x ref value.
 
take the chuck off and measure the mounting surface to a front surface you can scratch on the chuck. now when you need to get a z offset just scratch the surface off the chuck and if I remember right there will be a button that you can toggle with the smiley face x y z and then insert a ref dimension. just toggle to z and enter the chuck length. and for x measure the bar and scratch the tool in x. but If I remmeber right use the radius of the bar in the x ref value.

Thanks, I will take a look. It looks like (from a photo I have) I may not have to remove the chuck to measure nose to face of chuck but will check in person tomorrow. That will give me an offset from the machine reference point.

But the Z measurement the controller seems to want me to enter first is distance of tool tip to center of turret (tool fixture reference point). Same in X. This is the measurement I was wondering how to determine.
 
go to jog - parameters - softkey to the right tool and offset, jog the tool to the face of the chuck and just pinch a piece of paper.
then theres a determine comp softkey. press it and it will bring up a x y or z, the smily button (one in the middle of the arrow keys) will toggle between x y z. toggle to z then enter the chuck distance then hit include sk and it will put the number in.

a simple turning tool will be a type 500. length 1 is x and 2 z.
 
go to jog - parameters - softkey to the right tool and offset, jog the tool to the face of the chuck and just pinch a piece of paper.
then theres a determine comp softkey. press it and it will bring up a x y or z, the smily button (one in the middle of the arrow keys) will toggle between x y z. toggle to z then enter the chuck distance then hit include sk and it will put the number in.

a simple turning tool will be a type 500. length 1 is x and 2 z.

Thanks I will give it a try!
Tom
 
Ok, this procedures works and I get it for touching off turning tools. How do I do this for live tools that stick out horizontally? I assume you touch the bottom of the tool (say an end mill) on the top of the known diameter you turned, and add half the tool diameter, but not sure the procedure in relation to the Determine Comp. data to be entered?

What procedure do you use for setting work offset? I see it is in Parameters -> Zero Offset. Do I do that for every tool? On our little lathe we use one tool (rough turning tool) to always touch off work face, all other tools are referenced to that tool rather than individually. Here though every tool will be referenced to the same point...

A question related to machine operation...when I spin the turret around there is nowhere on the display that shows what tool is loaded and what it’s offsets are. The display always shows the machine coordinates until a program is running or until I actually load the tool specifically in the MDA screen, then the minute I switch to jog mode or other the display switches back to machine coord. I am trying to fully understand the tool, work, and machine offsets and it is difficult when the machine won’t display position using tool offset except when running a program where i have the possibility of crashing...

-Tom
 
ok, its the same live tool. I kinda have a map

under each tool you can have 9 cutting edges. I set it up like this

all type 500 - length 1 is the x, 2 is the z
live tools will be a fixed number most likely 4.724 (120mm) for length 1

1 - basic turning, live edge 7 tool, leading edge of a grooving tool (face or turning) facing main spindle
2 - back edge of grooving tool
3 - basic turning, live edge 5 tool, leading edge of a grooving tool (face or turning) facing main spindle
4 - back edge of grooving tool

5 - radial tool - edge 8 - length 1 is x length, 2 is zero (centerline) but sometimes you use this to fudge the tool in for alignment

type 120
6 - radial tool - edge 8 for g19 milling on the side with y. length 1 is x, type 100 may also work

7 - open for odd ball stuff


type 120 - length1 = z dist, 2 not used (but may be y offset never use it, 3 is x or fixed live tool
8 - is for d1 live tools for transmit milling - drilling ect
9 - is for d3 live tools for transmit milling
copy d1 or d3 depending what side your facing and swap x and z

this is for the tmcon (main) and tmc2on (sub) commands, tmcof cancels either.
this is so you program just like you would for a 3 axis mill. Program x y positions
and the control will figure it out for you. but note you can not transverse centerline
of spindle. you can move x-1 to x1, you will have to have a intermediate move like

x-1 y0; start point
x.01 y.01
x1 y0

and if your going to move a rapid xy move make sure your out of the work in z, it does some crazy
x moves with the spindle rotating around (i call it doing its math)

transmit;
t1 d8
g95 s1000 m4
tmcon
d8 g0 x1 y0 m8
g1 z-.3
g4 f.2
g0 z.2
g0 x.01 y.01
x-1 y0
g1 z-.3
g4 f.2
g0 z1
tmcof
d1 x0; feature on center reset d
g1 z-.2
g4 f.2
g0 z1 m5 m9
 
Thanks for that pcasanova! Will take a while for me to process all that. I am still trying to figure out tool and work offsets for a basic turning profile, let alone using transmit, LOL!
 
How do you insure you are in a safe location before a tool change? On my small machine “G53 X0 Z0” is the upper right position of the turret so issuing that before a tool change puts it in a safe location. Is there an equivalent in the Siemens controller?

That is how do you make sure you are away from the work, the tool loaded can change which direction you want to move first, and then that you move back to reference point in a controlled fashion?

-Tom
 
there's nothing siemens has, you find the spot and note the positions and add to the end of the tool

G0 G53 D0 X, Y0 Z, Z2=29.3; your z2 should be the same no matter what, jog it all the way back to soft limit then bring it out a little to an even number like 29.3. - to the end of every tool. I've seen some people create a sub called park_turret and just call that up. I keep mine in the main to adjust the moves so I'm not wasting 10" of travel on every tool move, or move z to z13 while working on the main and z16 when working on the sub. just keep in mind if you have a long tool to program around it with a z then x move.
 
take the chuck off and measure the mounting surface to a front surface you can scratch on the chuck. now when you need to get a z offset just scratch the surface off the chuck and if I remember right there will be a button that you can toggle with the smiley face x y z and then insert a ref dimension. just toggle to z and enter the chuck length. and for x measure the bar and scratch the tool in x. but If I remmeber right use the radius of the bar in the x ref value.

It turns out the turret won’t get close enough to the chuck face to allow this. The soft limit is reached about an inch or so before the center of the turret reaches the edge of the face of the chuck. So I guess using the chuck face isn’t going to work as a reference point...
 
Is there a screen that shows the active Gcodes? I can’t find one so I assume the answer is no, but I am perplexed by this. Do you just get use to repeatedly specifying ALL gcodes you want active before every MDA command?
-Tom
 
use a gauge block

Anything that requires holding something (like a block) and working jog buttons as well as consent key doesn’t work. I will need to find or make a fixture of some sort that I can attach with magnets or something so I can close the door and measure as needed.

Do you set your tool data (X and Z) fields based on the tip distance from the center of the turret for a given tool?

-Tom
 
after re-reading it, what tool are you trying to set? the centerline of the turret is the 0. if you have a stick or live tool it should stick out far enough to reach before the soft limit is reaches. you can get the key that goes into the interlock and make a "service key". again not condoning just mentioning it. Know it's against the rules but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. and yes thats only in jog when you got to get to a position you really need to watch close.

And thinking go into parameters, i think settings and see if any limits are set. then on the right theres a sk for protected zones make sure nothing there is turned on.

tool type 500 is going to be length 1 is the x and 2 is the z. so a live tool would be the 120mm in x and center of turret toward the main would be a positive number and sub a negative number.
side note in the field I always just go "120/25.4" enter and the control will do the math
 
after re-reading it, what tool are you trying to set? the centerline of the turret is the 0. if you have a stick or live tool it should stick out far enough to reach before the soft limit is reaches..

Well, currently just trying to set regular profiling tool (500), also a cut off tool and threading tool. But I will also want to touch off mill/drill in both vertical and horizontal live holders at some point. I will also want a method to use long term as I need to change or adjust tooling.

you can get the key that goes into the interlock and make a "service key". again not condoning just mentioning it. Know it's against the rules but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. and yes thats only in jog when you got to get to a position you really need to watch close..

I would like to do this, not sure I follow though. Are you saying one could make a "key" shaped like the thing on the trailing edge of the door and put that into the interlock that is up in the back top left? Not sure I can reach there, but perhaps...need to look next time.

And thinking go into parameters, i think settings and see if any limits are set. then on the right theres a sk for protected zones make sure nothing there is turned on..

I will take a look at this...

tool type 500 is going to be length 1 is the x and 2 is the z. so a live tool would be the 120mm in x and center of turret toward the main would be a positive number and sub a negative number.
side note in the field I always just go "120/25.4" enter and the control will do the math

Ok, thanks that is helpful, I was wondering how I was going to enter data for a tool facing toward the sub spindle. My machine is in inch mode, so I don't have to enter 120/25.4, I can just enter 4.724. I recall seeing a setting variable that was set to "25.4" that probably makes this happen automatically. If you are curious about setting yours I might be able to find it again :-)

-Tom
 
My dmg mill has the same control I believe. To jog with the doors open you either have to hold a button, rig something else up to hold the button to free up your hands, or remove the door key and keep it in the lock.
 
You also mentioned you’re only seeing machine position in jog mode. There should be a soft key to switch between different ones
 
My dmg mill has the same control I believe. To jog with the doors open you either have to hold a button, rig something else up to hold the button to free up your hands, or remove the door key and keep it in the lock.

Removing and keep in lock sounds like it might be good solution. The only downside there is that when the (at least my)controller boots you have to open/close the door once so it can acknowledge the lock is working...
-Tom
 








 
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