2010 HURCO VM20 - numerous problems!
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    Unhappy 2010 HURCO VM20 - numerous problems!

    I have admired Hurco in recent years as they have truly offered great solutions to manufacturing problems. So when my 2000 Lagun VMC3516 finally had too many problems, I sold it and started shopping for a new Hurco. The local Hurco dealer offered me a 2010 VM20 that had just come in on trade at a fair price so I bought it.

    Was this a huge mistake? Is Hurco really this unreliable?

    To keep this short, I'll simply list this machine's problems chronologically;

    1) First day of use, the machine shut down unexpectedly when I pressed a button.
    2) Second day of use, same problem three more times pressing different feature buttons.
    3) Repairman came out and updated the software to version 9 of the winmax
    4) Next day, the control froze when editing one line of code.
    5) Repairman had never seen this problem and had no solution.
    6) The next month of use, control froze upon any editing of code, even changing one character.
    7) Into second month (last week), the Draw function locked up the control and forced a memory dump and log. After trying to "draw" several simple programs, the machine repeated the same errors and forced shut down.
    8) Repairman had never seen this problem either, loaded the logs and sent them to Hurco for review. He then downgraded my software back to the old version and shrugged his shoulders.
    9) The very next time I tried to use the machine, the touch screen no longer worked.
    10) Today, I'm sitting here scratching my head. I've owned this machine for around 2 months and I have not once been able to access any of the "amazing" control features advertised by Hurco. I have never used conversational as the machine locks up on that screen. I have never edited a single program with success. I cannot draw anything to verify the tool paths. And now I cannot even use the touch screen. When an alert pops up on the screen, it is dismissed by pressing "ok". Now that the touchscreen doesn't work, I simply have layer upon layer of alerts hiding every single screen.

    WHY DID I BUY A HURCO?

    And why can't they fix these problems?

    Does anyone have any helpful information or tips?

    Yes, I realize now that I should have bought the DMG Mori or Matsuura.

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    You have to ask yourself why a 2010 hurco came in on trade. You also have to ask yourself why your blaming hurco for your issues on a used machine. You can bet its something outside the box like a poor ground, bad input power or bad cable. You may even need a new CPU. Minnesota is the top Hurco area. You should be able to get a good tech. Was this from stone?

    A memory dump sounds like a safety feature. I would be looking at grounds and the cpu or memory cards.

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    The only possibly helpful tip I can offer is to get a new tech. The one that's been working on your machine so far is clearly clueless.

    There is obviously something wrong with the windows/embedded pc side of the control. Perhaps a bad memory module or something. Probably a very easy fix.

    Get a new tech.

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    This used machine was running perfectly fine on the floor of the previous machine shop. I walked in unannounced and witnessed it running just fine a month before it was delivered. I'm blaming Hurco because I bought it from a Hurco dealer who has not repaired it. Service is service. If one of my products has a problem, I make it work again because it has my name on it. I'm not asking for anything for free, just a paid solution to these ridiculous problems. The Hurco dealer literally talked me out of buying a new Hurco in favor of this machine.

    This machine is in Denver, not Minneapolis. I have two locations.

    I will check the grounds first. Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    The only possibly helpful tip I can offer is to get a new tech. The one that's been working on your machine so far is clearly clueless.

    There is obviously something wrong with the windows/embedded pc side of the control. Perhaps a bad memory module or something. Probably a very easy fix.

    Get a new tech.
    Thanks for the quick response. I will dig deeper into a potential memory problem. The tech is a great guy and does seem very knowledgeable so I will give him a second chance, but 2 months is just too long.

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    I have bought a lot of CNCS. After I get one I always reseat all the connections and boards. I do this for new and used. A lot of times they have unexplained quirks just from connections jiggling loose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHarrelson View Post
    This used machine was running perfectly fine on the floor of the previous machine shop. I walked in unannounced and witnessed it running just fine a month before it was delivered. I'm blaming Hurco because I bought it from a Hurco dealer who has not repaired it. Service is service. If one of my products has a problem, I make it work again because it has my name on it. I'm not asking for anything for free, just a paid solution to these ridiculous problems. The Hurco dealer literally talked me out of buying a new Hurco in favor of this machine.

    This machine is in Denver, not Minneapolis. I have two locations.

    I will check the grounds first. Thanks!
    Is that the Denver dealer for Hurco?

    I agree with what the Scotsman it saying... Maybe the control got banged really hard during transport and there is a tiny piece of solder or wire or crack in the PCB etc. that is causing your control to "wig" out. If it's an external ground fault/machine related, then that's a really serious ground fault to fritz the control. But a fritzed control can be fixed/replaced but at what $$$$$? So like what Gregormarwick is saying maybe find a really talented tech that is a specialist that is also really good at electronics if you want to find the exact source of the problem. Price of a very skilled and knowledgeable tech and his or her time versus a "dumb" replacement of boards and components? Perhaps? :-) Sorry for your troubles.

    Do you make high end bicycle components by any chance? (If you don't mind me asking?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by IAMATT View Post
    I have bought a lot of CNCS. After I get one I always reseat all the connections and boards. I do this for new and used. A lot of times they have unexplained quirks just from connections jiggling loose.
    I can't make a "Like" but "Like" :-) , but that seems like a really good idea. I wonder what insurance for transport related "injuries" to equipment works out to be? I am assuming there is only two states (insurance wise) where the machine either works or is completely destroyed and nothing in between.

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    Thanks for the suggestions. This is the 7th cnc machine I've purchased so I'm not completely new to this and I have done all of these things on other machines in the past. What has had me confused is how I can call out the repair tech 4 different times and still have issues.

    By the way, I make trumpets @cameraman

    My website...Harrelson Trumpets - Harrelson Trumpets

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHarrelson View Post
    Thanks for the suggestions. This is the 7th cnc machine I've purchased so I'm not completely new to this and I have done all of these things on other machines in the past. What has had me confused is how I can call out the repair tech 4 different times and still have issues.

    By the way, I make trumpets @cameraman

    My website...Harrelson Trumpets - Harrelson Trumpets
    [That's super cool... I used to be pretty serious tenor sax player. I liked your piece about whether you strip or lacquer your trumpet making no difference. Similar myths exist with saxophones too, I always wondered if I should get my instrument stripped, a few notable jazz sax guys swear by it.]

    The only reason I ask about Denver based dealers is that I think I have put Hurco on the list a hundred times and crossed it off a 100 times (for VMX 42i)... So I am just wondering if I cross them off the list a 101 times :-)/for good?

    Cheers,

    Eric

    BTW your trumpets and options you offer look amazing! When I was an undergraduate at Cradiff University in whales they had an amazing combined degree program of Physics and Music (I had a lot of friends from that department) was a pretty unique degree course at the time but cool that you took your trumpets to a physics department!


    So the kind of service tech that is trained to fix typical problems with CNC machine may be good at switching out servos, taking apart really tricky and difficult bearing assemblies on a 4th axis horizontal machine or good with hydraulics etc. etc... Or having to "Rite" a crashed machine. But that does not neccessarily make them an expert trouble shooter for digital electronic level problems with what is essentially a computer. To be honest that is really a different skill set... Not to the point of being mutually exclusive but almost. What does it take to rewire and install a new control on a VM 20 ?

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    Can you open the rear cabinet, pop the cover off the card rack (aluminium box with four thumbscrews) and pop a picture on here of the insides?

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    I just bought an older CNC. It's a YCM SuperMax TC-2 lathe built in 1989. It is a very low hours machine and everything under the hood looks new the guide rails and ball screws look like they just came out of the box. I made the two hour drive to the dealer and cut parts on it. I checked and indicated everything and it was right on the money in every aspect. It ran great sounded great and the price was more than good.

    One week later the machine is on my floor and all wired up ready to go. I powered up the control and it alarmed out. Ive seen it all been through it all so I know what to do. I re-seated every card, relay, plug and connector. Still nothing and now I'm starting to get stressed and upset. I took a brake to calm down and clear my head, I needed this machine running badly for a job. I returned to the power cabinet and right in my face was the main cable hanging off the spindle drive. I plugged it in and we were up and running. The spindle is making a loud ticking/banging noise like something is hitting sheet metal and it comes and goes. Once I get through this job I'll take the sheet metal off the machine and find the problem.

    Things come lose. Cables, boards, relays and sheet metal when machines are moved and transported. I was in a big hurry and should have checked and re-seated everything before ever turning on the power.

    If you saw the machine operating with no problems I'm putting my money on something came lose during the move. I like the grounding idea, check that right back to the main panel. I have driven a ground rod for a machine in the past maybe that would help. Shut off the breaker and check all your cables, cards and relays.

    I know enough about electronics to be dangerous so be careful what you touch some things can hold power for long periods of time. Wear a grounding wrist band or better yet have the tech do it, stand there while he does so you know everything was checked, nothing missed.

    Good luck

    Make Chips Boys !

    Ron

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    [That's super cool... I used to be pretty serious tenor sax player. I liked your piece about whether you strip or lacquer your trumpet making no difference. Similar myths exist with saxophones too, I always wondered if I should get my instrument stripped, a few notable jazz sax guys swear by it.]

    The only reason I ask about Denver based dealers is that I think I have put Hurco on the list a hundred times and crossed it off a 100 times (for VMX 42i)... So I am just wondering if I cross them off the list a 101 times :-)/for good?

    Cheers,

    Eric

    BTW your trumpets and options you offer look amazing! When I was an undergraduate at Cradiff University in whales they had an amazing combined degree program of Physics and Music (I had a lot of friends from that department) was a pretty unique degree course at the time but cool that you took your trumpets to a physics department!


    So the kind of service tech that is trained to fix typical problems with CNC machine may be good at switching out servos, taking apart really tricky and difficult bearing assemblies on a 4th axis horizontal machine or good with hydraulics etc. etc... Or having to "Rite" a crashed machine. But that does not neccessarily make them an expert trouble shooter for digital electronic level problems with what is essentially a computer. To be honest that is really a different skill set... Not to the point of being mutually exclusive but almost. What does it take to rewire and install a new control on a VM 20 ?
    The Hurco has now been repaired twice since my last update. The first time, the tech replaced the hard drive and everything worked perfect, for one day. On day two after the repair, the control did not boot from the hard disk. He came out to take a look thinking the battery had died on the board, but that wasn't the issue. So he put the original hard disk back in and I had the enjoyable task of setting up all the tools, offsets and parameters from zero again. Then he came back today and put a second new hard drive in and the machine is running fine so far.

    Would I buy a Hurco again? Yes. But would I shop for a DMG, Matsuura, Makino, Mazak or Mikron first? YES

    Do I trust my repair tech and the local Denver Hurco dealer to support this machine 100%? Absolutely YES

    I am considering a Hurco VM10HSi and a VM10UHSi in the future as I truly do find the Hurco interface, control logic, rigidity and price to be a good balance.

    [concerning stripping your tenor, it really does not change the tone. Changing your mouthpiece taper would have a major influence on tone production just as is true on brass instruments. Have you considered picking it up again and playing with a local band?]

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHarrelson View Post
    The Hurco has now been repaired twice since my last update. The first time, the tech replaced the hard drive and everything worked perfect, for one day. On day two after the repair, the control did not boot from the hard disk. He came out to take a look thinking the battery had died on the board, but that wasn't the issue. So he put the original hard disk back in and I had the enjoyable task of setting up all the tools, offsets and parameters from zero again. Then he came back today and put a second new hard drive in and the machine is running fine so far.

    Would I buy a Hurco again? Yes. But would I shop for a DMG, Matsuura, Makino, Mazak or Mikron first? YES

    Do I trust my repair tech and the local Denver Hurco dealer to support this machine 100%? Absolutely YES

    I am considering a Hurco VM10HSi and a VM10UHSi in the future as I truly do find the Hurco interface, control logic, rigidity and price to be a good balance.

    [concerning stripping your tenor, it really does not change the tone. Changing your mouthpiece taper would have a major influence on tone production just as is true on brass instruments. Have you considered picking it up again and playing with a local band?]


    That's great that you give a good thumbs up for FMS. I have found Troy K to be very diligent and overall a very very nice group (without question). They seem very enthusiastic about the Matsuura 5 axis machines. Originally they would be minded to push Doosan machines on me (not a bad thing), but they lost the Doosan "Gig" which I thought was pointless/mad/crazy to pull that away form those guys; but it's good that they can now push Hurco in a more positive and direct way perhaps and do well out of that.

    The VM10HSi and VM10UHSi seem very interesting indeed with the 20K and 30K spindles. Also interesting that the likes of Sandvik Coromant are also pushing the idea of higher spindle speeds and shallower more rapid cuts/passes as being the way to go for more efficient production; and I guess that fits well with more advanced high speed/Trochoidal style milling/tool paths and a lighter machine.

    I am certainly dipping my toe into the DMG Mori pond... Unfortunately my application is a bit of "Mother" for precision and accuracy. I'd love to make my life easy and push the "easy button" with Hurco but I think after a short while I would hit a brick wall in terms of what we need to achieve. For me the sticking point is the lathes (if going a Hurco route), so instead we are looking at DMG Mori NLX 2500/1250 type lathe/turning center. Some of the NLX 2500's can achieve roundness of 0.5 micron and part accuracy of about 4 micron... Very impressive and on the VMC side NVX5100 looks very good but in particular the 4th axis DDRT is also very accurate (for the money) down to 5 arc seconds (zero backlash/direct drive system). Pretty much we have to jump through whatever hoops to achieve the part accuracies that we need. Potentially DMG Mori for us, seem to be of lower risk perhaps, as we are not job shop with killer production schedules so we can take a fair amount of time to set things up iron out the wrinkles and proceed very slowly and carefully for what we need to do in-house.

    FMS seem to have picked up Hwacheon (mainly for their lathes) and seems like they will be able to run really well with those. Don't know how proven they are or what types of part accuracies they can achieve, but they look quite promising indeed. The VMC don't look too bad either :-)

    Hope the new/old Hard drive is the charm. Fingers crossed... :-)

    [Re: Tenor sax, yup several mouthpieces but not obsessively so, and yesterday my GF took me to see the Jazz venue "Dazzle"... (we used to say "Jazz isn't dead... it just smells funny")...I am new to Denver and have been listening to KUVO, and I have been really impressed by the local young (ish)artists that are pushing the artform forward in new interesting and progressive ways and directions... Yup yesterday having a drink at dazzle feeling quite at home that I should blow the dust off and get my chops back and maybe hook up with a forward thinking local band or just a really fun one... Seems like a lot of worthwhile things going on here... But have to set up a new shop first ;--) So that might be a while but really good to know that Jazz has a really good home in Denver and that eventually I can get back into that scene... Would be very good/nice ].

    Cheers,

    Eric

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    That's great that you give a good thumbs up for FMS. I have found Troy K to be very diligent and overall a very very nice group (without question). They seem very enthusiastic about the Matsuura 5 axis machines. Originally they would be minded to push Doosan machines on me (not a bad thing), but they lost the Doosan "Gig" which I thought was pointless/mad/crazy to pull that away form those guys; but it's good that they can now push Hurco in a more positive and direct way perhaps and do well out of that.

    The VM10HSi and VM10UHSi seem very interesting indeed with the 20K and 30K spindles. Also interesting that the likes of Sandvik Coromant are also pushing the idea of higher spindle speeds and shallower more rapid cuts/passes as being the way to go for more efficient production; and I guess that fits well with more advanced high speed/Trochoidal style milling/tool paths and a lighter machine.

    I am certainly dipping my toe into the DMG Mori pond... Unfortunately my application is a bit of "Mother" for precision and accuracy. I'd love to make my life easy and push the "easy button" with Hurco but I think after a short while I would hit a brick wall in terms of what we need to achieve. For me the sticking point is the lathes (if going a Hurco route), so instead we are looking at DMG Mori NLX 2500/1250 type lathe/turning center. Some of the NLX 2500's can achieve roundness of 0.5 micron and part accuracy of about 4 micron... Very impressive and on the VMC side NVX5100 looks very good but in particular the 4th axis DDRT is also very accurate (for the money) down to 5 arc seconds (zero backlash/direct drive system). Pretty much we have to jump through whatever hoops to achieve the part accuracies that we need. Potentially DMG Mori for us, seem to be of lower risk perhaps, as we are not job shop with killer production schedules so we can take a fair amount of time to set things up iron out the wrinkles and proceed very slowly and carefully for what we need to do in-house.

    FMS seem to have picked up Hwacheon (mainly for their lathes) and seems like they will be able to run really well with those. Don't know how proven they are or what types of part accuracies they can achieve, but they look quite promising indeed. The VMC don't look too bad either :-)

    Hope the new/old Hard drive is the charm. Fingers crossed... :-)

    [Re: Tenor sax, yup several mouthpieces but not obsessively so, and yesterday my GF took me to see the Jazz venue "Dazzle"... (we used to say "Jazz isn't dead... it just smells funny")...I am new to Denver and have been listening to KUVO, and I have been really impressed by the local young (ish)artists that are pushing the artform forward in new interesting and progressive ways and directions... Yup yesterday having a drink at dazzle feeling quite at home that I should blow the dust off and get my chops back and maybe hook up with a forward thinking local band or just a really fun one... Seems like a lot of worthwhile things going on here... But have to set up a new shop first ;--) So that might be a while but really good to know that Jazz has a really good home in Denver and that eventually I can get back into that scene... Would be very good/nice ].

    Cheers,

    Eric
    Congrats on your move to Denver.

    Troy, Rob, Rick and Steve have been great to work with purchasing my Hurco. And despite all the weird problems, I don't blame then in any way. I truly believe the manufacturer should be accountable when software and control issues come up as their name is on the product. The new hard drive has worked 100% so far and I am very satisfied. I'll probably move to a solid state drive on the next machine I purchase just to prevent this issue in the future.

    I am very serious about purchasing a Matsuura LX-160 with 46k spindle, linear motors, 42 pallets, 338 tools designed to run lights out or the DMG Mori equivalent. Foothills carries the Matsuura line and if I had the space on my floor and enough savings, I would buy one today. I'm also attending the DMG Mori open house in Pfronten, Germany this coming Germany to learn about their comparable machine, the HSC 30. Either way, the future of manufacturing at Harrelson Trumpets will be built around a 5-axis fully automated solution.

    With that said, we may purchase a Hurco 5-axis VM10Uhsi in the meantime as our timeline for a $500-$700k machine is at least two years away right now. We first need to buy a building and with production consuming all of my time, that will be another year away.

    [Dazzle and Nocturne are the only real Jazz clubs in town. I have a lot of friends playing both venues regularly. My GF and I get out to see as much Jazz as possible since that was at one time my career before building horns took over my life. We're going to hear Joshua Trinidad this Sunday at 7pm at Syntax Physic Opera in Denver. He's a Jazz trumpeter who plays a lot of free music so it is always interesting. And he's a great connection to the live performing scene in Denver as he plays more gigs than anyone I know outside of New Orleans. You and your GF are welcome to meet us there if you want to hang. Drop me a line at my business email [email protected] and I'll send you my number.]

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHarrelson View Post
    Congrats on your move to Denver.

    Troy, Rob, Rick and Steve have been great to work with purchasing my Hurco. And despite all the weird problems, I don't blame then in any way. I truly believe the manufacturer should be accountable when software and control issues come up as their name is on the product. The new hard drive has worked 100% so far and I am very satisfied. I'll probably move to a solid state drive on the next machine I purchase just to prevent this issue in the future.

    I am very serious about purchasing a Matsuura LX-160 with 46k spindle, linear motors, 42 pallets, 338 tools designed to run lights out or the DMG Mori equivalent. Foothills carries the Matsuura line and if I had the space on my floor and enough savings, I would buy one today. I'm also attending the DMG Mori open house in Pfronten, Germany this coming Germany to learn about their comparable machine, the HSC 30. Either way, the future of manufacturing at Harrelson Trumpets will be built around a 5-axis fully automated solution.

    With that said, we may purchase a Hurco 5-axis VM10Uhsi in the meantime as our timeline for a $500-$700k machine is at least two years away right now. We first need to buy a building and with production consuming all of my time, that will be another year away.

    [Dazzle and Nocturne are the only real Jazz clubs in town. I have a lot of friends playing both venues regularly. My GF and I get out to see as much Jazz as possible since that was at one time my career before building horns took over my life. We're going to hear Joshua Trinidad this Sunday at 7pm at Syntax Physic Opera in Denver. He's a Jazz trumpeter who plays a lot of free music so it is always interesting. And he's a great connection to the live performing scene in Denver as he plays more gigs than anyone I know outside of New Orleans. You and your GF are welcome to meet us there if you want to hang. Drop me a line at my business email [email protected] and I'll send you my number.]
    That's super cool on so many levels... Will definitely drop you line.

    Big Cheers!

    Eric

    BTW glad to hear the Hard drive is playing nice, and yes I agree about Hurco. Lots to say about all of that :-) Probably see you Sunday... That sounds like a lot of fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHarrelson View Post
    The Hurco has now been repaired twice since my last update. The first time, the tech replaced the hard drive and everything worked perfect, for one day. On day two after the repair, the control did not boot from the hard disk. He came out to take a look thinking the battery had died on the board, but that wasn't the issue. So he put the original hard disk back in and I had the enjoyable task of setting up all the tools, offsets and parameters from zero again. Then he came back today and put a second new hard drive in and the machine is running fine so far.
    In the next week or so I'm having a 2011 Hurco VM10U shipped across the country from CA to SC. Is there anything regarding the hard drive that can be done to protect it from transport vibrations ? Can it be "parked" or removed easily ? If only solid state HD's were common in use in 2011, but alas...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    In the next week or so I'm having a 2011 Hurco VM10U shipped across the country from CA to SC. Is there anything regarding the hard drive that can be done to protect it from transport vibrations ? Can it be "parked" or removed easily ? If only solid state HD's were common in use in 2011, but alas...
    Yes, you can remove the hard drive and pack it in bubble wrap to prevent damage. It is very easy to remove. Just open up the back of the computer and take out the mount that holds the drive. Be sure to ground yourself before touching anything.

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    Im of mind that while it is Hurco's machine...it has been out of the factory for years and possibly run well for many of them...you said you saw it running.

    So after a move bugs abound...happens. Not sure what you would expect factory to do...


    I have a tech that is fabulous...but found sometimes a seemingly simple issue gets the better of him. Sometimes better to put new eyes on the problem.


    Hurco makes a nice machine...but in a different league then a Mori.

    A 2010 shouldn't be compared to a new....

    Id start the evaluation process once your machine is fully up and running.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHarrelson View Post
    ...I'll probably move to a solid state drive on the next machine I purchase just to prevent this issue in the future
    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    ...If only solid state HD's were common in use in 2011, but alas...
    I realize this is an old thread...
    Very very easy to change the existing hard drive to SSD.
    I've done this operation on my '09 VMX24 using a Samsung PRO 128 GB SSD

    Step 1: Remove old hard drive & clone it using CloneZilla (or your fav cloning software)

    ## If you install cloned SSD, WinMax will not boot (see Step 2)

    Step 2:*** You will need to get your local Hurco factory rep involved***

    *Hurco hard coded some type of ID # that "ties" the existing hard drive to the machine*
    *I sent the newly cloned SSD to the rep*

    Step 3: Re-install SSD, power up machine & all is good.


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