24,000 6-32 holes to make, how fast can I go? - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Yes, but again, my haas does the exact same thing the brother does when tapping. It's how rigid tapping is even able to be accomplished, by synchronizing the spindle to the ball screw. To call one synchronized tapping and the other rigid tapping and say they're fundamentally different yet have no fundamentals differ... Is silly. Anyhow, I like to learn, hence why I even asked. Carry on with your 24k holes OP. Good luck.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Just for giggles, I made up a quickie program to tap 10 holes, one inch apart and 32 TPI to Z-.25" with an R plane of .1". Programmed at 2K rpm took 14.7 seconds. Bumped speed to 4K and time dropped to 12.6. Bumped speed to 6k and time stayed the same. So for this machine (Mori TV30) the spindle does not get up to commanded speed before having to stop and reverse with this depth (.35 total Z move or 11 turns) at somewhere between 2K and 4K.
    This is a good idea, Tomorrow at break time I’ll do the same and see what happens. I’m curious if there will be a difference between say 6k and 8k on this thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeflonDave View Post
    I like the DRAP idea. But I have never used one. I would add that tool life may be extended using a form tap or roll tap. A;so, it will reduce the amount of chips in the machine since a roll tap does not cut. Tool material selection is an important consideration when form tapping.
    Yeah, form taps are stronger and usually my go-to with 6-32’s. I don’t have to deburr the backs of these things if I can keep the burr down. The backs come out smoother when the thread coming out the bottom has been cut vs formed.

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volitan View Post
    ....... I’m curious if there will be a difference between say 6k and 8k on this thing.
    That will depend on how deep you are tapping. The greater distance Z travels will determine what speed the spindle can attain. When I did my experiment, I edited the tap depth to get 1" of Z travel. The spindle noticeably reached a greater speed than when the Z travel was only .35".

    One thing I did notice while goofing around with this... The spindle load meter looked like it was limited on accel and decel to ~75% of load when tapping. That is probably in a parameter somewhere. Makes me wonder if there is some lost performance in the way it is set up or if there is some concern about repeated high current concerns for the drive when lots of holes are to be tapped at high speeds. I've never paid attention to what it does under normal spindle start/stop commands.

  6. #65
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    The brother method is more like a servo-spindle of 17 hp than a typical sync-to-spindle z axis ballscrew servo motor of x counts at the z axis servo with 2 kW or less of power=> acceleration.

    It takes a Haas machining center about 1-2 sec to go to max speed.
    Drawing 30 kW of power.
    It is essentially a 3-phase motor, with a VFD.
    The Brother is more of a 3-phase ac brushless servo.

    A brushless servo can go to 3000 rpm in 20 ms, 0.02 secs.

    The brother method is very different to a typical thread-sync cyclle.
    Afaik.
    Much more powerful motor, much less inertia, leading to better dynamic response.

    Adjusting the spindle speed with 17 hp, 3 kg mass, vs the z axis head of 300 kg, with 2 kW/3hp, is about 200 times faster.

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  8. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volitan View Post
    This is a good idea, Tomorrow at break time I’ll do the same and see what happens. I’m curious if there will be a difference between say 6k and 8k on this thing.
    Before doing a bunch of high speed tapping on your older Brother machine, check the box on top of the rear control cabinet. It has two fans that may be dirty and/or not functioning plus the regenerative resistors inside may be gunked up and need cleaning. You will get a Spindle overheat alarm if this system is not functioning properly. Also to do a speed test, choose a finer pitch, like 80 tpi, and experiment with z depths to see more dramatic results.
    Last edited by BROTHERFRANK; 03-09-2020 at 11:13 AM.

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  10. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    The brother method is more like a servo-spindle of 17 hp than a typical sync-to-spindle z axis ballscrew servo motor of x counts at the z axis servo with 2 kW or less of power=> acceleration.

    It takes a Haas machining center about 1-2 sec to go to max speed.
    Drawing 30 kW of power.
    It is essentially a 3-phase motor, with a VFD.
    The Brother is more of a 3-phase ac brushless servo.

    A brushless servo can go to 3000 rpm in 20 ms, 0.02 secs.

    The brother method is very different to a typical thread-sync cyclle.
    Afaik.
    Much more powerful motor, much less inertia, leading to better dynamic response.

    Adjusting the spindle speed with 17 hp, 3 kg mass, vs the z axis head of 300 kg, with 2 kW/3hp, is about 200 times faster.
    Yup. Brother does it better. Synchronized Tapping! They're so silly. LOL

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    Synchronized is synchronized. Synchronized is Rigid, and Rigid is Synchronized. When you can rigid peck tap and have a good fit with go/no go gages tells me the spindle and Z are very accurately synchronized. If there were errors in the synchronization of the spindle and Z, then when going in and out and in and out with the tap it would be shaving the thread flanks resulting in a bad thread.

    I'd like to see a pretty technical explanation of how Brother has a superior method of synchronizing the spindle and Z. Mathematically, synchronizing the spindle to Z is just a constant ratio. Far less complex than synchronizing axes for circular interpolation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirAIG View Post
    So other then fancy wording and arguably better spindles/servos/synconization, brother is doing nothing the others aren't from synchronizing the spindle to the z axis ball screw. At least it has yet to been explained differently.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

    It sounds to me that Brother is syncing the C axis to the Z axis, whereas everyone else is syncing the Z axis to the C axis, which is less responsive. Slight distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.

    Unless I read that wrong, and I'm an idiot, which is also possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    It sounds to me that Brother is syncing the C axis to the Z axis, whereas everyone else is syncing the Z axis to the C axis, which is less responsive. Slight distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.

    Unless I read that wrong, and I'm an idiot, which is also possible.

    They are not treated as a Master/Slave relationship where C controls Z or Z controls C. Here is a portion of the Fanuc description of their rigid tapping.....

    position control is also performed during the rotation
    of spindle, that is, the rotation of spindle and feed of drilling axis are
    controlled as linear interpolation of two axes.

    The real key words above are "linear interpolation". The CNC is controlling each via the position control loop.

    The real difference of a 3 phase spindle motor and an AC servo motor is that the servo uses permanent magnets on the rotor while the spindle motor uses an inductive magnetic rotor. The stator windings are 3 phase delta for both. A servo motor will have faster response than an induction motor because the magnetic field is "on" all the time. The magnetic field of the induction motor only is created when power is applied to the stator windings.

    That said, an induction motor can be synchronized to a servo motor just fine. The response characteristic of the induction motor determines the response of the servo it is interpolating with. This is really no different than synchronizing the X and Y axes of a mill to do interpolated motion even though the Y axis drive has to move more weight than the X axis drive.

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    I guess the difference is purely Acceleration/deceleration and marketing.

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    And focus. Brother's whole world has been fast drilling and tapping until just the past few years. The whole system has been designed with a focus on fast drilling and tapping. By system, I mean both software, electrical hardware, and mechanical hardware. They are awesome at that and now with the fairly recent addition of fast and pretty capable milling are a super option for many manufacturing applications. If I had to replace my 30 taper Mori today, a Speedio would be the only choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmaks View Post
    I guess the difference is purely Acceleration/deceleration and marketing.
    They don't have to do much marketing on the Speedios, they sell themselves once you see them in action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    They don't have to do much marketing on the Speedios, they sell themselves once you see them in action.
    I stand corrected, the difference between G284 on Okuma vs G77 on a Brother is Accel/Decel and Focus.

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    Math again, I am bad in it and need to visit some special lessons with math tutor ezymathtutoring because I need to improve my algebra skills and prepare for admissions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darui View Post
    Math again, I am bad in it and need to visit some spwcial lessons with math tutor.
    Might want to hire a typing tutor while you're at it.

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    Volitan. I am typically not a big fan of MSC, but I came across these DRAP tools that look pretty decent.

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/82736323

    Works great for thinner wall through hole applications.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    Volitan. I am typically not a big fan of MSC, but I came across these DRAP tools that look pretty decent.

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/82736323

    Works great for thinner wall through hole applications.
    Thanks!
    Just finished the fixture and getting ready to program it. Should be running today.
    Haven't had the time to do any speed and speed experiments.

  25. #79
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    Went with a tin coated roll tap, 1700 holes in so far it still looks good.
    I did a quick test before I left last night to see if it was getting up to speed. This machine taps at 6k rpm max. 8k is for the 22k rpm spindle which we don't have.

    This is tapping .250 deep from an R plane of .1
    These all include time coming from machine home position to the pallet too.

    So at 6k it tapped 112 holes in 91 seconds
    5k was 94 seconds
    4k was 101 seconds.

    So there is a difference, I believe it's getting up to speed. Pretty impressive for a 21 year old machine.

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    Foiled!!

    We're about 1/2 way through but it looks like we need a new drive for the table now.
    That's how it goes with older equipment sometimes.

    Luckily the job isn't hot at the moment and we have quite a few done if production calls for them,


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