27K Brother S700X1 Spindle Amp keeps failing
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  1. #1
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    Default 27K Brother S700X1 Spindle Amp keeps failing

    Hello. In late January I got my first Brother machine running. An S700X1 with 27K spindle. We power through an American Rotary ADX30 phase converter, then use a step down transformer to drop to about 212V.

    We started with a phase perfect phase converter, but we were their guinea pig testing the new design on a high performance machine and although we were within the listed performance of the converter, it would shut down when the spindle got above 16K. We worked with them for about a month trying everything they recommended and every part they sent with no luck. Finally I had to get the machine running and told them their time was up and bought a rotary converter. We had to pay shipping and a return fee and lost about $1K and several weeks run time. Phase Perfect probably lost a customer for life.

    Fast forward about 3-4 weeks. The machine blows a spindle amplifier. The service tech comes out, notices we were doing a lot of tool changes in that program, theorizes that either the first phase converter crapping out constantly damaged something, or all the spindle stops and starts so close together caused it to overheat. I wasn’t particularly comforted, but kept running with the new one.

    Now, a couple months later it blows a second spindle amplifier. Different phase converter, and the machine had been sitting for about 3-4 hours while I played with some fixturing. I ran 3 cycles that were about 3.5 minutes each with 8 tool changes and then it threw this error in the middle of a tool change. The error code is:
    SV0500.084 *SPINDLE SERVO ERROR (INTERNL.REGEN.RESIST.OVRHEAT)

    The more senior Brother tech is not available until tomorrow, so I asked that we leave the machine down for a day until he is free to put a fresh set of eyes on it.
    I just paid the 20% down on a second brother machine, R450x1, that is going to be delivered in about a week. I’m getting some nerves here. Our 6 HAAS machines are slower, but I haven’t had reliability issues with them. They have been great over the last 13 years. Brother machines are supposed to be so reliable, but this worries me.

    Has anybody else seen anything like this happen?
    Thanks,
    Adam

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    Are you running 6 Haas machines, the 27K Brother and the new R450 on a single Rotary?

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    Why can't you get 3phase power?

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    No, 4 mini mills and CL-1 off single phase. The other machines each have their own phase converter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Why can't you get 3phase power?

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    Not worth the investment for my location.

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    How fast are they trying to stop that spindle from 27k? (I didn't even realize Brother had a 27k spindle)
    Are you running it up in that range? That is a lot of regen to burn off!

    Ironically the single issue I have had with my Brother, was caused by a Phase-Perfect!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNight View Post
    Not worth the investment for my location.
    Sounds like it might be worth the investment or worth moving. If your renting well...now might be a good time to stop and buy a building.



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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Sounds like it might be worth the investment or worth moving. If your renting well...now might be a good time to stop and buy a building.



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    Ahem, not always that simple.
    Just sayin'......

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    My thought would be it's still a power supply issue.
    How close to capacity are you running on the converter? Is the power going into the converter maxed out? Some converters are better than others. I used a rotary when I was still in the garage. Don't remember which brand. Didn't have Brothers back then either.
    I've had zero issues with my Brothers. As someone else posted, the 450/650 setup is a license to print $$.
    Hope you can get it solved quick and easy!!

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    In my experience:

    1- Speedios do not need a lot of power, but they *need* that power to be very clean.

    2- Every member of the Speedio garage mafia who has tried to run off of rotary phase converters has eventually moved to Phase Perfect. You aren't the first to have run into the production change PP did that caused headaches, but this is the first time I've heard of them no standing behind the product and figuring it out. Unfortunately, the first part of this paragraph still likely applies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipSplitter View Post
    Ahem, not always that simple.
    Just sayin'......
    True... But power is a requirement that can't just be overlooked when owning a machine shop.

    Phase converters, phase perfect, all suck compared to real 3 phase.

    We bought a piece of land with an older 4000 sqft building across town that we plan to build a new building next year and move everything. First thing we researched was accessibility to 3 phase power and enough amps available for growth.

    I'll post pictures tomorrow of the directional drilling for the conduit under the highway they are doing tomorrow. Sometimes you just have to spend the money to get the power that's needed.



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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    How fast are they trying to stop that spindle from 27k? (I didn't even realize Brother had a 27k spindle)
    Are you running it up in that range? That is a lot of regen to burn off!

    Ironically the single issue I have had with my Brother, was caused by a Phase-Perfect!
    It uses the same drive as the High Torque. Starts and stops a bit faster than your machine.

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    BrotherFrank was kind enough to give me a ring and talk things through. Much appreciated Frank! He told me how to clear out a secondary error (z overtravel) and I thought I would try running the machine at reduced RPM to see what would happen. No problems. Normal speed up to 24K no problems. I've been running about an hour on it, 15 minutes at max of 27K and no problems. So I let my local tech know that the problem is not the same as last time when the amplifier blew. I guess I run it until something fails. This is a bit frustrating...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    In my experience:

    1- Speedios do not need a lot of power, but they *need* that power to be very clean.

    2- Every member of the Speedio garage mafia who has tried to run off of rotary phase converters has eventually moved to Phase Perfect. You aren't the first to have run into the production change PP did that caused headaches, but this is the first time I've heard of them no standing behind the product and figuring it out. Unfortunately, the first part of this paragraph still likely applies.
    To their credit, Phase Perfect did keep trying to work with me. However, after over a month of being shut down because their product wouldn't work, I had to go with something different. I was disappointed they didn't cover return costs. I do if my products fail. The whole experience probably cost me 5-8K between shipping and return costs and lost production.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNight View Post
    To their credit, Phase Perfect did keep trying to work with me. However, after over a month of being shut down because their product wouldn't work, I had to go with something different. I was disappointed they didn't cover return costs. I do if my products fail. The whole experience probably cost me 5-8K between shipping and return costs and lost production.
    That's where you pay with credit card and ship it back, ask for a full refund and if they don't, dispute it unless their policy says otherwise and they can prove you agreed to it.

    That's a lot of money....

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    My S500 been running on an American rotary and a buck transformer for 16 months no issues. I run 100% spindle load maybe 10% of time.

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    If it was me I'd look to rent a high end power analyzer, back in the day that was a Dranitz. It will tell you everything you could need to know. If you are out in the country you may getting very poor quality power regulation. I once had a customer that kept having the phase failure relay I installed to protect their 3 phase motors nuisance trip every weekend. Power company said it was their problem until I put a recording analyzer on the line. Power company guy looks at the recording and says "Oh we've got a bad capacitor bank" Yeah and Oh it cost me $1000 bucks to prove it!

    A couple things to check. How does the drive do deceleration? When decelerating they regen to the DC bus capacitors and the voltage can shoot way up. It may have a braking resistor but a look at the DC bus voltage may tell you a lot. Does the drive have a saturable reactor in front of it? It looks like an open frame tranformer and can help filter the power. Relatively inexpensive.

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    We ran into that error while on 3 phase on a 1000 with a 10k high torque.

    I can't for the life of me remember what it was.

    I *think* it was a fan that was bad?

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    Hopefully your tech can sort you out... but what I'd be wondering is does ALL the energy in the decelerating spindle go into the resistors, or does some of that get out into the line? If so, I think a rotary converter or PP is going to have issues.

    The poster above who mentioned a fan is on the right track... is there anything about the machine location that could contribute? Is it tucked into a tight space or is your shop hotter now than it has been? It might not be a bad idea to upgrade the fan that cools that resistor, if/when you solve the problem - more airflow certainly won't hurt.

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    My guess is 212V is too low and dropping lower on spindle start, if its a multi-tap transformer I'd bring it up some to whatever the max you can feed the speedio and not lose your warranty will allow. Should reduce some heating and easier for it to suck in the power it needs. Make sure your wiring is copper and oversized too eh.

    Also to be sure, this is a real 3PH transformer and not just a cheap buck boost dinky set up that causes bad leg imbalance right?


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