27K Brother S700X1 Spindle Amp keeps failing - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    (INTERNL.REGEN.RESIST.OVRHEAT)

    I mean, it says the regen resistor is overheating, I tend to believe it. I am imagining that just like a bridgeport on a phase converter, instant reverse is problematic, so perhaps that very fast spindle stopping/reversing is turning a bunch of kinetic energy[too much] into heat.

    When I slam my bridgeport into reverse at 2k, it uses the inertia of the power lines to absorb some of that kinetic energy. When running on a phase converter, one really only has 66 percent of that 'inertia', probably similar to if I was running it on the end of a 100 foot small ga extension cord, the motor will not snap into reverse, it will just slow down and probably blow the breaker, or smoke something.

    Now I have to imagine that the fancy VFD they are using relies on the power line to absorb voltage until the DC buss gets to high then it relies on the resistor. Perhaps 66 percent of the AC is not enough, and it ends up relying on the resistor too much.

    Answer? Hell I dunno

    Oversized transformer with a lotta iron in it?

    Brothers are small, probably tend to be put in garages and run on converters more than many machines, maybe Brother would be interested in an oversized decel resitor, or an oversized fan.....


    As to 3 phase, in driving around southern maine I realized that even on the state highway there were miles and miles with one wire on the pole. No 3 phase. Not always about just paying for it

  2. #22
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    212 volts seems kinda odd to me.

    What does the Brother control's guts actually want for power? Is that what you're feeding it?

    My low volt Jap machines get 200 volts and they are very happy. If they have a 230V setting I give them no more than 235 volts. If I fed 212 volts into some of my machines that are set for 200V they'd be pissed.

    Is the generated power leg feeding into a control power supply? I have no idea what a Brother's control looks like, but if there is a junction where the power is distributed throughout the control look to see if the terminals have an un-equal number of wires coming off them. If they do, put the generated leg on the terminal with the fewer wires coming off it.

  3. #23
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    I have some input on this after dealing with Fanuc ( also a Jap control ) The japs use 200V and here in the US we use 240V three phase power ,,, this is not just a brothers thing by any means ,, what you should do is get the dealer to put it in "WRITING: what power they want you to have and then its up to you to get it to the machine "IF" the machine then still does not like it its in the hands of the dealer to make it work right or come pull the machine from your shop ...

    FYI
    if you buck the single phase power going to your converter its just a small transformer you need ,,, your only going from 240V down to 200V on a single phase line ,, I have some transformers that are like 6"x6"x12" that cut my 240V down to 220V in that that is what I was told Doosan wanted for power ,,

    one other thing to understand is on most machines its only the coolant pump that uses the 3 phase power ,, the control is chopped to like 5 volts and drives are boosted to around 340V and your spindle controller takes the 3 phase AC power and makes it into DC and then puts it back into AC for the spindle motor ,,,

  4. #24
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    Not all "Japs" use 200V, and be careful with the 50/60Hz part of that... a lot of 200V stuff in general is a 50hz rating(Euro). Japan as a country still has both frequencies in use depending on which part of the country you're in, due to a screw up a very long time ago when they bought a power station generator from Germany, 50hz.

    I feed around 228V to my fanucs, and fed 247V for a years to the VMC and it was happy. One of them is a Doosan, tech actually told me to bump up the voltage from what I initially set it at below 220v.

    Maybe Brothers are a lot pickier, but carefully check into it and Voltage range for 60Hz power. Too low a Voltage, and voltage drops below requirements during peak loads like spindle start can cause plenty of its own problems with over heating and early electronic failures.

  5. #25
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    I have a S700X1 27K on a 20HP PP bucked to 230V prior to the PP unit and have had no issues. I do only have about 50-60 cut hours at 90% of those hours above 20K RPM with most work at 24K.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNight View Post
    To their credit, Phase Perfect did keep trying to work with me. However, after over a month of being shut down because their product wouldn't work, I had to go with something different. I was disappointed they didn't cover return costs. I do if my products fail. The whole experience probably cost me 5-8K between shipping and return costs and lost production.
    Which new model/size of PP were you trying out 10, 20, 30hp?
    What type of transformer are you using to step your voltage down?

  7. #27
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    I know it kinda defeats the purpose of a Brother, but in a pinch you can slow the accel/decel rates of the spindle a bit.

    Makes it much easier on the drive...

    ToolCat

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    I know it kinda defeats the purpose of a Brother, but in a pinch you can slow the accel/decel rates of the spindle a bit.

    Makes it much easier on the drive...

    ToolCat
    Actually you should never do that. It would mess up the toolchanger timing. However, the issue is prompted by the stopping of the spindle at the highest speed, so slowing down the spindle speed would help. I am pretty sure the machine was cleared of any alarms and no need for a new drive.

    Andy

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    Watts are watts... so if your voltage is lower, your ampherage is going to be higher. It's a lot harsher on the components to run higher current at less voltage than vise versa.

    I'd work out that voltage issue and check that your fans are working OK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Actually you should never do that. It would mess up the toolchanger timing. However, the issue is prompted by the stopping of the spindle at the highest speed, so slowing down the spindle speed would help. I am pretty sure the machine was cleared of any alarms and no need for a new drive.

    Andy
    Maybe brothers are different, they seem to defy all the rules of physics when it comes to tool changes. But normally you would be fine to slow acceleration because the machine will still verify the spindle is stopped before actually doing the toolchange. Toolchange will just be delayed slightly.

    I agree with cnctoolcat, it would make things much easier on electrical supply if slowed down a bit. Assuming no other complications. And acceleration is so fast on a brother, even if you slow it down 50% it will still be pretty darn fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    Maybe brothers are different, they seem to defy all the rules of physics when it comes to tool changes. But normally you would be fine to slow acceleration because the machine will still verify the spindle is stopped before actually doing the toolchange. Toolchange will just be delayed slightly.

    I agree with cnctoolcat, it would make things much easier on electrical supply if slowed down a bit. Assuming no other complications. And acceleration is so fast on a brother, even if you slow it down 50% it will still be pretty darn fast.
    Tool change timing is tied into z axis movement and retraction. Of course the spindle would certainly be stopped but slowing down the acc/dec on the axis is a no no on Z and I would not try this on the spindle. Simpler solution when having this issue is to slow down spindle RPM. Also, you could change the dynamics of tapping using the Brother tapping cycles. No reason to mess with acc/dec. Fix the power issue coming in and that solves the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    No reason to mess with acc/dec. Fix the power issue coming in and that solves the problem.
    Isnt always that easy in some cases. If I didnt slow the spindle ramp time on my machines theres no way I could run multiple machines at one time without changing the whole service on my shop which would be a nightmare for me now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    Isnt always that easy in some cases. If I didnt slow the spindle ramp time on my machines theres no way I could run multiple machines at one time without changing the whole service on my shop which would be a nightmare for me now.
    The Brother works on a 30 AMP Breaker and are known to replace slower machines with less spindles.

    Sounds like a reason to buy a new Brother!

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  16. #34
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    Sounds more like a good reason "NOT" to buy brothers machines ,,, not the first thread I have seen were guys are having a hard time getting them to run on US power. but it is worth pointing out that the guy has been dealing with it for 6 months and has to bring it onto the forum to try and get it working ,,, so well 2outof3 is happy to step in and try and pimp brothers machines he has been no help to getting the customer taken care of.

    well its up to the shop owners to supply good power to the machine its up to the machine dealer to tell the customer what he needs to do and if it does not work then it should be back on the dealer to make the machine run right or remove the machine ,,,

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  18. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    Sounds more like a good reason "NOT" to buy brothers machines ,,, not the first thread I have seen were guys are having a hard time getting them to run on US power. but it is worth pointing out that the guy has been dealing with it for 6 months and has to bring it onto the forum to try and get it working ,,, so well 2outof3 is happy to step in and try and pimp brothers machines he has been no help to getting the customer taken care of.

    well its up to the shop owners to supply good power to the machine its up to the machine dealer to tell the customer what he needs to do and if it does not work then it should be back on the dealer to make the machine run right or remove the machine ,,,
    I think you need to reread the whole thread.

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  20. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    I think you need to reread the whole thread.
    I have
    The hi lights are that close to 6 months ago the guy got a S700 and its not running reliable and he has had 6 Haas machines running reliability for 13 years and he is freaked out about buying a new R450 in that as a dealer you have not got his first brothers machine working right in 6 months ,,,

    If I was in his shoes I would not even think about putting a second brothers machine on my floor tell the dealer gets the first one running right ,,, I think its clear to say the dealer know he was running phase converters "BEFORE" they sold him the first machine and for someone to sell a second machine to someone before they can even get the first one to run reliably is saying a lot about the dealer...

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    I have
    The hi lights are that close to 6 months ago the guy got a S700 and its not running reliable and he has had 6 Haas machines running reliability for 13 years and he is freaked out about buying a new R450 in that as a dealer you have not got his first brothers machine working right in 6 months ,,,

    If I was in his shoes I would not even think about putting a second brothers machine on my floor tell the dealer gets the first one running right ,,, I think its clear to say the dealer know he was running phase converters "BEFORE" they sold him the first machine and for someone to sell a second machine to someone before they can even get the first one to run reliably is saying a lot about the dealer...
    Well, your assumption about it not running reliably aside, you are correct, you should not buy a second Brother or even a first one. I always let the users tell thier stories here. I think the users have made thoughtful suggestions and a member of the PM team reached out ahead of the service tech and helped the member over the phone. We can only be as helpful as the information we have. The Brother users here can comment on how reliable they are.

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    spindle decel rate affecting tool changes? that sounds quite odd...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    spindle decel rate affecting tool changes? that sounds quite odd...
    It probably would not but the timing of the tool change is directly tied into the z axis position and the retract speed. Z axis logic is tied into the spindle speed during tapping and I would hate for someone to try to attempt an ill fitted fix because they read something on this forum. Just no reason to play with the acc/dec on the machine.

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    I was just watching few vids of the S700 changing tools, and there is a pause between the initial Z+ move and the moment the grippers grab the tool and additional Z+ move is done for spindle to release the tool, sometimes the pause is there, sometimes there is no pause at all, and it seems that when the pause is there, it is when the spindle is stopping from high rpm

    so if he does reduce the decel rate - it will affect that pause length when the control waits for spindle stop signal and probably spindle position verification before proceeding with gripping the tool and spindle releasing it

    I simply cannot imagine any "timing" here being involved at all, you don't "time" such sequences of actions, there has to be a definitive signal saying the spindle has stopped and is in right position to proceed with the tool change

    first thing what I would do though is to try and replicate the conditions that brought the braking resistor error up, make sure that the resistor is definitely overheating and then act accordingly, overheating protection is there to make sure nothing blows up, so it should be quite safe to try and replicate the problem

    edit: regarding syncing spindle to Z axis for threading, if there was no sync problem at high decel rates, then there most definitely shouldn't be any problems at all syncing at slowed decel rates, that is also not a "timed" thing, it is constantly monitored and taken care of by the control, else you would have problems with tap size and material combinations affecting your "timing" and braking tools

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