27K Brother S700X1 Spindle Amp keeps failing - Page 3
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 60 of 60
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    1,997
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1528
    Likes (Received)
    1463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    I was just watching few vids of the S700 changing tools, and there is a pause between the initial Z+ move and the moment the grippers grab the tool and additional Z+ move is done for spindle to release the tool, sometimes the pause is there, sometimes there is no pause at all, and it seems that when the pause is there, it is when the spindle is stopping from high rpm

    so if he does reduce the decel rate - it will affect that pause length when the control waits for spindle stop signal and probably spindle position verification before proceeding with gripping the tool and spindle releasing it

    I simply cannot imagine any "timing" here being involved at all, you don't "time" such sequences of actions, there has to be a definitive signal saying the spindle has stopped and is in right position to proceed with the tool change

    first thing what I would do though is to try and replicate the conditions that brought the braking resistor error up, make sure that the resistor is definitely overheating and then act accordingly, overheating protection is there to make sure nothing blows up, so it should be quite safe to try and replicate the problem
    Spindle stop for the 27k is about half a second. Maybe slightly less. The 10K high torque is fractions of a second. Each time the spindle stops it stores the energy to use for the reversal and next start up. I have seen the spindle servo drive have overheating in a couple instances. One related to machining, where a customer had a few hundred tapped holes close together and was tapping at 8,000 RPM. At 8,000 RPM, the servo would not be able to throw off the energy fast enough. At 6,000 RPM no issue. Saw this in one application. The second is when power coming in is hot and maybe inconsistent. I believe always this is seen with phase conversion from single phase to 3 phase. Never seems to be a long term issue, buck boosters or slight mod of the wiring solves the issue. When you are talking about fractions of seconds, why mess with the acc/dec? The tool changer relies on mechanical position and timing of the Z axis drive. No reason to mess with it. There are over 150,000 Brothers running in the field. This is not a problem seen except in very specific installations and those seem to sort out quickly.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    poulsbo, wa, usa
    Posts
    1,029
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    72
    Likes (Received)
    441

    Default

    6 months is not what I would call sorting out quickly... like I wrote before " I would not let them put a second machine on my floor tell they fix the first one ,,, Clearly they think 6 months is "sorting it out quickly"

    I have seen a lot of posts were guys were running brothers machines on phase converters but I think they were all lower RPM spindles ,, but clearly with 150,000 Brothers machines running in the field they should know what there doing to not take 6 months or more to fix this one !!!!

    I might be coming off as a ASS but I have been in this guys shoes were a machine is not running reliably and some dealer is jerking him around for month after month. One buys a new machine expecting it to be reliable and not to be broke down costing you time and money month after month ,,,

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    1,997
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1528
    Likes (Received)
    1463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    6 months is not what I would call sorting out quickly... like I wrote before " I would not let them put a second machine on my floor tell they fix the first one ,,, Clearly they think 6 months is "sorting it out quickly"

    I have seen a lot of posts were guys were running brothers machines on phase converters but I think they were all lower RPM spindles ,, but clearly with 150,000 Brothers machines running in the field they should know what there doing to not take 6 months or more to fix this one !!!!

    I might be coming off as a ASS but I have been in this guys shoes were a machine is not running reliably and some dealer is jerking him around for month after month. One buys a new machine expecting it to be reliable and not to be broke down costing you time and money month after month ,,,
    As I posted earlier, I don't think the poster needed a second spindle amp. He got service within a day or two of asking for support from Yamazen. If he wants to come on and clarify and contradict what I am posting, he should. I am just posting what I have heard form inside our company.

    He had a bad spindle amp after having power issues unrelated to his machine. That was a few months ago. It was replaced. He got an alarm a few days ago. It was cleared. If the problem keeps happening, you may have a point. If you take the users who have weighed in on this at their word, this is not a common issue. The new machine he ordered does not even have the same spindle drive as his current machine because it is the 16,000 RPM machine.

    I don't foresee the same issue that he had before. Will he ever have a spindle over heat alarm in the future? Maybe. The alarm is there for a reason. You used the term unreliable. The poster ordered a second machine for his business. I am sure he had his reasons for that. Your hostility towards our company and our product is open. I don't know why.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    2,024
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    816
    Likes (Received)
    2486

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    I have seen a lot of posts were guys were running brothers machines on phase converters but I think they were all lower RPM spindles ,, but clearly with 150,000 Brothers machines running in the field they should know what there doing to not take 6 months or more to fix this one !!!!
    IDK how things are in WA, but in Oregon, a Yamazen tech cannot so much as even lift the cover on the main line connects in the control box as they are not state certified electricians. They can poke a meter in the provided access slots, but they cannot legally even swap the connectors to the correct phase.

    A 27k Speedio is the highest performance version of a very high performance machine tool. Brother and Yamazen don't play some sort of shell game about the power requirements the same way Porsche doesn't hide the fact that a 911 requires 92 octane. If a customer simply cannot acquire 92 octane, it isn't on Porsche to solve that problem for them any more than it is on Brother or Yamazen to magically re-engineer a Speedio to work for one customer.

    Honestly - the real problem here is Phase Perfect. Sounds like that is the big link in the chain that started this goat rodeo. If you wanna get on a company's crank for not supporting customers, it is PP who did some design change that caught a number of Speedio customers off-guard, and it sounds like they both could't solve the problem for the OP, nor would they even properly wind down the transaction. But you know, that wouldn't provide you an opportunity to be cranky about Speedios, so why expend the internet ammo, right?

  5. Likes Pete Deal, eaglemike, SRT Mike liked this post
  6. #45
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Missouri
    Posts
    86
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    102
    Likes (Received)
    43

    Default

    16K Brother for 4 years. The first couple we had severely overloaded 100A 3phase ~220v " wild leg" It would beep the battery backups in the shop and across the street when the lathe tool changed or the compressor started. We had to turn off the undervolt alarms in the Vf2 and the SL10 lathe. The Brother never complained about power or the heat ( Except the time the Mediacom guy shorted out the main line)

    When we added the Genos560 we upgraded to 400A Lights haven't blinked since. it must be running it on a converter that blocks the regen or something like that.

  7. Likes 2outof3, meowkat liked this post
  8. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    1,946
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1335
    Likes (Received)
    1107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Spindle stop for the 27k is about half a second. Maybe slightly less. The 10K high torque is fractions of a second..


    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    where a customer had a few hundred tapped holes close together and was tapping at 8,000 RPM. At 8,000 RPM, the servo would not be able to throw off the energy fast enough. At 6,000 RPM no issue.


    Phew, that's why I'm staying with my Fadals.

  9. Likes 2outof3, mmurray70 liked this post
  10. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Ohio
    Posts
    898
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    195
    Likes (Received)
    383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post




    Phew, that's why I'm staying with my Fadals.
    How many new fadals can you buy to keep up with one brother?

  11. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    West Virginia
    Posts
    1,130
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    660
    Likes (Received)
    484

    Default

    I agree with gkoenig that this is a phase converter issue. Everybody knows that serious production machine tools are designed to run on real power company 3 phase power. Those of us who run off a phase converter also know that it is not ideal and has it's issues. I'd say it is more an issue with the power supply than the machine.

    I run my shop on a 30hp American rotary converter. It's been good for everything I've used it for. I did aspire to replace it some day with a Phase Perfect at some point but it seems in the last year or two all the stuff I read about them I will stick with my old school converter which just chugs along. And I am not talking about this thread especially either.

  12. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    848
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    255
    Likes (Received)
    495

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Deal View Post
    I agree with gkoenig that this is a phase converter issue. Everybody knows that serious production machine tools are designed to run on real power company 3 phase power. Those of us who run off a phase converter also know that it is not ideal and has it's issues. I'd say it is more an issue with the power supply than the machine.

    I run my shop on a 30hp American rotary converter. It's been good for everything I've used it for. I did aspire to replace it some day with a Phase Perfect at some point but it seems in the last year or two all the stuff I read about them I will stick with my old school converter which just chugs along. And I am not talking about this thread especially either.
    Hey Pete. I tried messaging you but your mailbox is full.

  13. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Medina OH
    Posts
    2,205
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    270
    Likes (Received)
    1067

    Default

    I've got a 10 year old American Rotary that my Brother has been running on almost 18 months. I run 16k frequently, LOTS of tool changes.

    A few minor quirks getting it up and running... Now when I spool up to 16k I get a "warning". My Yamazen service department told me it was a warning, not an alarm, essentially the machine telling me there was an issue because it wasn't spooling up FAST enough. This Brother will change to a drill, spool up, drill the hole, and tool break detect in the time my last VMC spooled up to 6k rpm

    I was quoted around $30k for me to have 3-phase run the 100yds to my building.

  14. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston MA
    Posts
    1,111
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    458
    Likes (Received)
    934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I've got a 10 year old American Rotary that my Brother has been running on almost 18 months. I run 16k frequently, LOTS of tool changes.

    A few minor quirks getting it up and running... Now when I spool up to 16k I get a "warning". My Yamazen service department told me it was a warning, not an alarm, essentially the machine telling me there was an issue because it wasn't spooling up FAST enough. This Brother will change to a drill, spool up, drill the hole, and tool break detect in the time my last VMC spooled up to 6k rpm

    I was quoted around $30k for me to have 3-phase run the 100yds to my building.
    How are you doing tool break detection? Using a touch setter like the Renishaw or Blum? Or do you have an add-on laser type of system? How do you like it? How fast is it and do you have any issues (false detections, missed breaks, etc)? Going to need to implement something in the next couple of weeks and would love your feedback!

  15. Likes Rick Finsta liked this post
  16. #52
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Medina OH
    Posts
    2,205
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    270
    Likes (Received)
    1067

    Default

    I have a metrol that I absolutely love. I only just recently started having an issue with it, but it oddly only does it when I am measuring a tool. I think it needs disassembled and cleaned. My coolant turns to a thick brown goo, and I have a feeling it is gummed up.

    It is lightning quick and so far 100% reliable. You can adjust your "window" depending on what you are doing. It catches broken tools, and it catches drills with a ball of chips under them. The only thing I haven't figured out how to do is when there is a ball of chips, how to restart from that spot. On my to do list.

    I have a video somewhere of my machine coming out of a cut, doing a tool break detect, tool change, and back into the cut. Chip to chip it is 2, maybe 3 seconds?

  17. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    981
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    225
    Likes (Received)
    628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    How are you doing tool break detection? Using a touch setter like the Renishaw or Blum? Or do you have an add-on laser type of system? How do you like it? How fast is it and do you have any issues (false detections, missed breaks, etc)? Going to need to implement something in the next couple of weeks and would love your feedback!
    BK Mikro. Cheapest and fastest, unless you already have toolsetting then it is just the fastest.

  18. #54
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    848
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    255
    Likes (Received)
    495

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    BK Mikro. Cheapest and fastest, unless you already have toolsetting then it is just the fastest.
    How fast is this (at 16k rpm)?

    YouTube

    That is with the Blum Znano. Metrol similar. BK micro is good but won't catch fine chipping (.002" - .003"). On a pallet change machine you will need two of the plunger types, one for each pallet to check tools in process. BK Micro you will just need one, but doesn't measure tools.

  19. #55
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    1,031
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    730
    Likes (Received)
    401

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ABNight View Post
    BrotherFrank was kind enough to give me a ring and talk things through. Much appreciated Frank! He told me how to clear out a secondary error (z overtravel) and I thought I would try running the machine at reduced RPM to see what would happen. No problems. Normal speed up to 24K no problems. I've been running about an hour on it, 15 minutes at max of 27K and no problems. So I let my local tech know that the problem is not the same as last time when the amplifier blew. I guess I run it until something fails. This is a bit frustrating...
    Is it still running? Are you still getting the R450 or have you been sufficiently spooked?

  20. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    848
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    255
    Likes (Received)
    495

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdlinger View Post
    Is it still running? Are you still getting the R450?
    The 27K is running and the new R450 has been installed. When I spoke with the OP, he said the one Brother is pumping out more work than the 4 minimills combined!

  21. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    1,031
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    730
    Likes (Received)
    401

    Default

    So he blew two amps and so far so good on the third one? Did anything change or is he holding his breath just waiting for the third one to go?

  22. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    848
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    255
    Likes (Received)
    495

    Default

    The second amp was fine. The 27k machines are solid. We have a client with three and is ordering his 4th. He runs the spindles 20-23 hours a day at 27k rpm machining miniature heat treated stamping tools. Oldest is 4 years in service. Many other installations out here without a hickup. Another client here has eight, and another 6. Running great.

  23. #59
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    1,031
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    730
    Likes (Received)
    401

    Default

    So what changed to make ABNight’s machine stop freaking out? He said you helped him clear an overtravel alarm but DO WE KNOW WHY THE OVERHEAT ALARMS STOPPED? I’m just trying to make sure the solution to the original problem is posted!

  24. Likes SND liked this post
  25. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    848
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    255
    Likes (Received)
    495

    Default

    I am waiting to hear back from the OP with an update.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •