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  1. #1
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    Default 3rd Party CNC Programming

    How many out there utilize 3rd party companies to program your CNC or CMM machines? I know a good reputable source if you are needing one.

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    None, Most of those fuckups that post freelance programming are sitting in their parents garage using pirated software with no liability insurance.....

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    Most, perhaps, but not all. I know a highly reputable CNC programming consulting group that can successfully program anything with a control on it. They're quite busy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rkoenigsman View Post
    How many out there utilize 3rd party companies to program your CNC or CMM machines? I know a good reputable source if you are needing one.
    Your not a very "detail oriented" person are you ?

    Details are what matters, and simply spending qty (15) minutes searching the archives would have answered your question.

    Spammers don't care to search the archives.

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    Most, perhaps, but not all. I know a highly reputable CNC programming consulting group that can successfully program anything with a control on it. They're quite busy.
    I posted a while back about using a guy to program our Mori NMV5000DCG and wiping out the entire spindle column and A/B axis. Turned out the guy had no insurance so we had to file a claim with State Farm for the machine damage and a separate claim with Safeco for loss of business during the month it took to repair. Last I heard they took the guy for well over $300k

    There's a new guy posting all over Linkedin, Indeed, Simply hired and even here on PM about his contract programming company in FL hiring independent programmers to work from home. Just for curiosity, I messaged him about the details. Basically, no interview, no requirement on software ownership/licensing, liability is a personal option, yada yada yada.

    Most EULA's somewhere have a clause that you can't program for outside companies. I know Autodesk won't let someone use a licensed seat to program another company's machines. I was using my personal seat of Featurecam for programming at a place in Fort Worth TX. until they decided to purchase their own seat. When the salesman from AD came in they had a fit because I had been using mine and let me know I had violated the EULA and could be fined. If it hadn't have been for my client buying a seat i'm sure I would have had a lot of problems.

    One has to wonder, What software company would grant a license to program for multiple companies? Wouldn't that be like shooting themselves in the foot?

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    I guess I don't quite follow you. I blew about $60k on my cam software and it's none of their God Damn business weather Im programming my machines or someone else's.
    I've been on both sides of the contract programming game. Unless it's someone you know and have worked with, it aint gunna work.

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    I guess I don't quite follow you. I blew about $60k on my cam software and it's none of their God Damn business weather Im programming my machines or someone else's.
    I've been on both sides of the contract programming game. Unless it's someone you know and have worked with, it aint gunna work.
    Most CAD/CAM systems dont sell you the software, All you get is licensing rights. Read your EULA thoroughly.

    Here is Autodesk policy, If you read section 2.1 you can see they are so strict that the software can't leave the region it was licensed in.

    "Autodesk® software is not sold. Rather, we license it to the end user under the terms of a software license agreement. The terms of Autodesk's software license agreements may vary depending upon the specific software product and version that you licensed from Autodesk as well as the specific geographical region in which you obtained your software license. "

    Untitled Document

    I've read NX, Pro-e, Catia, Mastercam, Edgecam, and a few other top shelf EULA's and for the most part they say the same stuff, Almost as if each developer uses a blanket agreement.

    I know it sucks, Hell, We have well over $1M in Autodesk products alone and we don't own a single one, and still pay around $200K maint per year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Most, perhaps, but not all. I know a highly reputable CNC programming consulting group that can successfully program anything with a control on it. They're quite busy.
    Then why advertise ?. Can't imagine needed a service like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Most CAD/CAM systems dont sell you the software, All you get is licensing rights. Read your EULA thoroughly.

    Here is Autodesk policy, If you read section 2.1 you can see they are so strict that the software can't leave the region it was licensed in.
    Gcoder, while that is correct, it does not mean you are restricted in how you utilize your license.
    IOW, if you are a contract designer, programmer or even just a draftsperson, your license grants you the right to use it for anyone's project.
    There are a shit-ton of outfits that do exactly that, and nothing but that.

    As far as the region, I believe the "geographical region" means more like country or continent and not East-coast/West coast.
    Even then, you are absolutely allowed to do contract work for anyone anywhere on this planet. If there is a restriction on that, it surely isn't from your license.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wsurfer View Post
    Then why advertise ?. Can't imagine needed a service like that.
    The one I'm talking about doesn't advertise, they get all the work they can handle word of mouth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    None, Most of those fuckups that post freelance programming are sitting in their parents garage using pirated software with no liability insurance.....
    I do contract programming, but only very hands-on, with local manufacturers, setting up large (50k+) volume projects on Robodrills and Speedios. Yup, even have liability insurance. These are finicky projects with high-process reliability requirements, often quite exotic workholding, and running in environments that are not machining-oriented.

    Many of the manufacturing companies around here are not machinists. They might own a lot of spindles, but they aren't a machine shop and don't actually have enough programming projects to justify having a full-time programmer on staff. It is an interesting side gig - the money is OK, but I really like the experience and getting to work for well-known companies who's products I like. These folks often have budgets that allow you to play with a level of tooling and techniques that would be otherwise inaccessible. The downside is that you are the "outside guy" who is doing work that is integral to the overall product's success, but are definitely not on the team.

    What I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole is remote contract programming. You can be an amazingly competent, careful programmer... but there is absolutely no fucking way you can guarantee your CAM setup and post is what is going on a machine 1000+ miles away. Really, it is the post-processor that will screw you over so fast; hardly anyone has a post that is 100% dialed in perfectly; how the hell are you going to be confident the post you've got is gonna jive with every setting and parameter on a client's machine? I would say a good 25% of my job is dialing my NX post into my customer's machines.

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    Yeah I've done a bit of this locally and I'm only interested if I can get on site and either see the setup and train the operator, or if the guy is super squared away.

    It scares me to think of sending a program off and having someone just hit the go button!

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    My goodness....someone is having a bad day. Evidently you must have tried one of those "fxxkups". On the flip side, the company I know is actually benefiting companies through surge needs and taking on complex projects.

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    I use CREO/Manufacturing to program my companies vertical machining Centers. Last year I was onsite at a customer's location installing one of our factory automation products for three months. During this time I was programming our CNC machines offsite. With good communication and a good team offsite programming can be done.

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    Gcoder, while that is correct, it does not mean you are restricted in how you utilize your license.
    IOW, if you are a contract designer, programmer or even just a draftsperson, your license grants you the right to use it for anyone's project.
    There are a shit-ton of outfits that do exactly that, and nothing but that.
    I wish someone would explain this to Christian Biscoe and Glenn Mcminn of Delcam/Autodesk. I was written and verbally warned that if I used my seat of Featurecam to program for anyone else besides the company I registered my software under (Dasalla Technical Solutions at the time) they would file suit against me for violating THEIR EULA.

    This is why I suggested to Larry the necessity of reading the EULA. I'm as guilty as the next person about just clicking (continue) thinking "This is a Waste of time", But in my case it almost bit me in the ass.


    My goodness....someone is having a bad day. Evidently you must have tried one of those "fxxkups"
    Why Yes, Yes I did. And he manage to nearly destroy a $750K NMV machine. My whole point is I have since looked into outsourcing but have never seen an individual or company with liability insurance in case they screw up and crash a machine.

    In our case the program called the B axis to be 90 Deg and spinning 800 RPM while in turning mode. Then the program rapids the spindle directly into the C axis platten at 50 meters a min, so one could imagine how much damage was done to the entire DCG system. Not to mention the gouges in the Platen and that massive Octo-Ram. And then warping the machine so bad that after the repair they spent well over a week just trying to set comps so we could make a halfway decent part. And then, Of course Mori's gonna have this all on record and the machines resale drops well over 50%.

    Forgive my apprehension about someone coming on PM and their very first post is soliciting work and not even have a company name in the description. This to me is a red flag that some guy working a day job decides he wants to be an entrepreneur in his parents basement at night running a cracked seat of Mastercam 9. If you had a machine with a $14,000 payment a month and was crashed by one of these fly by night idiots you would be a bit disgruntled as well.

    I know a good reputable source if you are needing one.
    Ok, I'll bite. If its a reputable "Source", Do give out the name so they could be contacted about software licensing and insurance. Who knows, Maybe someone in here may need this service and your "reputable source" would have somehow made it past the moderator for free advertisement.

    Sorry about the rant guys but these drive buy freelance programmers are starting to be a nuisance.

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    Every situation is different. I don't know how most people go about things in the consulting world, but in my job role, we are expected to perform at a very high level. To do this on-site at least in the beginning and up to and including running some test code is needed. After that, I'm confident firing code over the wall. But then again, I use my customers Vericut machines, thier posts and try my best to mimick their internal practices wherever I can for consistency. If I am bringing something new to the table for a customer I will guide them, but ultimately they are responsible for verifying my code prior or concurrently with running it on the machine. NOT MY PROBLEM to ensure programs are proven out without a crash. So says our contracts anyway. We do not press the go button on the machine. Shit happens, no program is perfect out of the gate, but that said most of it can be caught with good prove out techniques and proofing methods. ALL programs will require edits of some type. I can and do commonly post programs with zero crashes or scrapped features on the first try. But sometimes you may miss something and break a tool or blow a feature size. This is life. Things like tool holder clearance, spindle clearance, fixture clearance, those issues are elementary and foundations to success, so rarely are those a problem, as they are handled concurrently with every step of the programming effort. A missed work offset, or a plane moving due to stupid Mastercam 2020 plane problems, well that's another story. But usually Vericut catches them without fail. The more the parts and machines are worth the more customers pay attention to stuff. Same goes for me.

    I'm fairly certain FYI that those that are doing serious consulting in the US using Mastercam typically have or should have a partner/dealer license.

    I will be the first person to agree though that there are many fly by night people out there that think they know what they are doing, but in reality have zero clue, and are very dangerous to machine tools. But on the flip side, there are many people out there that are qualified, do consulting work, and are very busy ALL THE TIME, due to the results they get. I know my results typically could buy a new machine in added productivity, tooling savings, or saved scrap in less than a year. If every project one of these guys did for you was this way, would you want anyone else knowing about your guy if you didn't have more work for him to do? Didn't think so.... Good people like this don't have to go far to find good work. Typically the only reason they venture out is to learn new skills, play with new machines, or if a shop stops paying quickly.

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    Hello.
    This post poses an interesting question, at least to me. Would you guys be ok with outsourcing if you got back not the g code but a saved cam file. Like a master cam file that you could then correct and verify and then post yourself. I am not asking about the logistics as it's stupid to assume that your hired gun will have your cam but just the sentiment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    I wish someone would explain this to Christian Biscoe and Glenn Mcminn of Delcam/Autodesk. I was written and verbally warned that if I used my seat of Featurecam to program for anyone else besides the company I registered my software under (Dasalla Technical Solutions at the time) they would file suit against me for violating THEIR EULA.
    g-coder05, was DTS your personal company, and so the software used was yours? I could see it as an issue if you were using a "third party" license for contract programming (you work for a company, use their seat for a unrelated company). I/my company own the software I use, and while I don't do remote programming, I don't believe I'm prohibited from it. Haven't double-checked the license though, not a real concern...

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    I wish someone would explain this to Christian Biscoe and Glenn Mcminn of Delcam/Autodesk. I was written and verbally warned that if I used my seat of Featurecam to program for anyone else besides the company I registered my software under (Dasalla Technical Solutions at the time) they would file suit against me for violating THEIR EULA.
    You linked to the EULA, but did not highlight the portion of it that excludes using CAM software in a consultancy fashion. If they gave you a written warning of *any* validity, it would have highlighted the portion of the agreement they were claiming you were in breach of. I would like to read that part.

    More importantly however - if they warned you that you were in violation of the EULA, but did not highlight the explicit section you were supposedly in violation of, it sounds more like these dudes were sales guys blowing smoke up your ass. Mind you, Delcam in the US was always a shit-show, and LinkedIn says that Autodesk let both of them go after the acquisition transition was done (at a time when Autodesk is expanding their teams... so make of that what you will).

    Siemens and my VAR both know that I bought NX to do consulting and who my clients are. They are happy to have some exposure to my clients, and there is a good chance that these outfits will hire on their own programmers - it makes the NX sales pitch easier if it is the software already being used with great success on the shop floor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    ... there is a good chance that these outfits will hire on their own programmers
    This is what doesn't make sense to me .... here's places with easily a half million dollars worth of equipment on the floor but they are too cheap to hire a programmer of their own. Penny-wise, pound-foolish

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