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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    This is what doesn't make sense to me .... here's places with easily a half million dollars worth of equipment on the floor but they are too cheap to hire a programmer of their own. Penny-wise, pound-foolish
    These guys buy machines to make very specific parts, in very high volumes. Machines are bought and set-up to make that one part for their entire service life. They might have 1-3 projects of this nature a year, and there really isn't enough programming work to spend $100k (salary, benefits, taxes, etc) to have someone sitting around, twiddling their thumbs most of the time.

    Machines are cheap. Humans are wildly expensive.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by plutoniumsalmon View Post
    Hello.
    This post poses an interesting question, at least to me. Would you guys be ok with outsourcing if you got back not the g code but a saved cam file. Like a master cam file that you could then correct and verify and then post yourself. I am not asking about the logistics as it's stupid to assume that your hired gun will have your cam but just the sentiment.
    A contract programming company approached me with this as their solution to many of my concerns. They send me the cam file, I'll use my own posts. The perfect solution, right? They can use my tool database, work holding, etc. Their 'programmer' would be working for me and on the clock if I call or need something done.

    Not quite sold on that though. What happens when I need something NOW, but "my guy" is busy working on something hot for one of their other customers? Or what use is it when I'm sent a garbage program and I'm spending my time fixing things to make it work right? I might as well do it myself. Or better yet, make it efficient or fast enough to make a profit? Plenty of hack jobs out there can make a program that will eventually make a part. Will you make money on the job though?

    Wasn't very convinced when they couldn't send a sample cam file for me to evaluate.

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    g-coder05, was DTS your personal company, and so the software used was yours?
    Technically is was mine. After I sold my industrial supply to Fastenal I formed DTS as an LLC partnership with my wife. Delcam charged me $5000 transfer fee with another 2 year $3500 service and maintenance agreement. This is where I got a bit confused, At the time Featurecam was still owned by Delcam and DTS was mainly contract onsite project engineering and management. Christian was my FC salesman at the time and knew I was using the software to program at factories all over U.S. and Asia so why didn't he say something then?!?!?

    Later down the road when I formed Accu-Tech Defense Systems to service L-3 he actually did make us purchase another seat but I was ok with that since it was two separate companies. The shocker was when I was doing a short contract at Rodens All Stars in Fort Worth. I called Delcam to let them know I had a client that had watched me use FC in their shop and they were interested in swapping from Mastercam to FC and thedy should send in a rep.

    The salesman came in and blew a gasket when he saw me using my seat and called Glenn. It's was only a matter of days before I was getting nastygrams from Delcam with threats of lawsuits along with Cease and Desist notifications. That was a devastating blow to me, Luckily I also have a seat of Esprit and a quick phone call landed me written approval. I'm guessing their must have been some sort of internal feud going on between Delcam and Autodesk around this time and maybe they were trying to tighten things up before they got canned. As it worked out,,,, not so well for them. While I hate seeing people losing their jobs, especially after a long career with a company, I didn't lose much sleep for those two and their double standards.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    The salesman came in and blew a gasket when he saw me using my seat and called Glenn. It's was only a matter of days before I was getting nastygrams from Delcam with threats of lawsuits along with Cease and Desist notifications. That was a devastating blow to me, Luckily I also have a seat of Esprit and a quick phone call landed me written approval. I'm guessing their must have been some sort of internal feud going on between Delcam and Autodesk around this time and maybe they were trying to tighten things up before they got canned. As it worked out,,,, not so well for them. While I hate seeing people losing their jobs, especially after a long career with a company, I didn't lose much sleep for those two and their double standards.
    Yea, you're lending more credence to my theory that these were douchebag sales dudes who have no idea WTF they were talking about, making threats outta their asses.

    Also, "You should read the EULA!" is meaningless advice. I read the one you linked and my Siemens NX EULA (well, skimmed it - that fucker is a phone book). None of us dumb machinists have the legal background required to read a modern EULA, which is language intended primarily for lawyers to fight over.

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by huskermcdoogle View Post
    Every situation is different. ....
    But then again, I use my customers Vericut machines, thier posts and try my best to mimick their internal practices wherever I can for consistency.

    .. ultimately they are responsible for verifying my code prior or concurrently with running it on the machine. NOT MY PROBLEM to ensure programs are proven out without a crash.
    Fuck That!
    and I mean ALL OF THAT!!!

    If I am too stupid to program a part on my machine but CAN afford outside help, I choose one of the following:

    a:
    Your finished product is my GREEN button. Meaning: you program, test, setup, dial-in / fine tune and then turn-over everything. That is: All done in my facility on my machine.
    You do EVERYTHING involved, and when we both agree that the process is acceptable and reliable you hand over everything.
    Then we document everything and only THEN do I become responsible sticking to everything We've just documented.

    b:
    Decline the job and let you be the hero to do all that shit above and risk everything of your own.

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Fuck That!
    and I mean ALL OF THAT!!!

    If I am too stupid to program a part on my machine but CAN afford outside help, I choose one of the following:

    a:
    Your finished product is my GREEN button. Meaning: you program, test, setup, dial-in / fine tune and then turn-over everything. That is: All done in my facility on my machine.
    You do EVERYTHING involved, and when we both agree that the process is acceptable and reliable you hand over everything.
    Then we document everything and only THEN do I become responsible sticking to everything We've just documented.

    b:
    Decline the job and let you be the hero to do all that shit above and risk everything of your own.

    Well I couldn't agree with a or b any more. What I wrote was what our management wants and what the meat of our contracts state. The reality of the situation is that we hand hold something through until its mutually agreed we have left you where you need to be. This is typically all laid out before hand in an agreement. But at the end of the day we aren't responsible for the safety of your machines or scrapped parts, or liability of mistakes down the road. That is and always will be on the company who uses us, just as it would be if they hired someone off the street who supposedly knows what they are doing, or conversely if a long time employee made a mistake and wrecked a machine. What you have to understand in my case, is that we don't charge directly for our services, we recover our cost of programming in the tooling we end up selling you to run the job we programmed. Big opportunity = more free time from us to get up and running.

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    The problem, IMO is incompetent setup people. I see this almost every day. I program, verify, make setup sheets, AND still get "hey this is wrong"... Then see they didn't use the right tool/loc/toolholders/parallels.
    Nothing will fix that with off site program

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    The problem, IMO is incompetent setup people.
    Very Very true. But at the end of the day employers want programmers who can get code and instructions to the machine any monkey can execute....

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    Well true, but if the monkey can't follow basic instructions

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    As someone who has worked in the highest levels of quality control you can have the best system in the world and someone who doesn't give a shit cannot be helped by it.

    Setup sheets, SOPs, batch records, etc., are all tools to help someone do their job correctly and prevent mistakes. If they don't care to do their job correctly or don't mind mistakes (or think they are incapable of making mistakes), you may as well have only given them a hammer.

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  18. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by huskermcdoogle View Post
    Very Very true. But at the end of the day employers want programmers who can get code and instructions to the machine any monkey can execute....

    There are times I would prefer the monkey over the guy who claims he has 35 yrs experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    As someone who has worked in the highest levels of quality control you can have the best system in the world and someone who doesn't give a shit cannot be helped by it.

    Setup sheets, SOPs, batch records, etc., are all tools to help someone do their job correctly and prevent mistakes. If they don't care to do their job correctly or don't mind mistakes (or think they are incapable of making mistakes), you may as well have only given them a hammer.

    I think one of the worst people are the ones nitpicking programs looking for the most minor issue to give them an excuse to not run a job. I have seen guys not run programs because the chamfer tool was cutting to deep.

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    I'm not following the connection to my comment?

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    This is what happens when a production operator decides he is a programmer. Dude thought that tool break detect on *every* tool in the turret would be a good idea, so he picked through a 9000 line program and added G65 P5000 wherever he thought it would work. As best I could tell, he didn't know what a Brother G100 tool change line was and inserted TBD after the tool change, but before height offsets were called (he deleted his edits).

    End result was that he drove a .625" Diamondback rougher (in a BBT30 machine!) all the way through a Metrol tool setter at Speedio rapid. The spindle was just fine, I suspect the delicate and soft body of the Metrol cushioned the impact enough to let the servo feedback hit all the alarms.


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    To the OP that just joined and has two posts, I realize right now you are thinking "I got this fancy pirated software and and I figured out how to make a tool path with it, but I don't have enough money for a car, let alone a CNC machine, so maybe I can con others to let me program for them"...

    Grow up, move out of your parent's basement, and learn about machining before you try to con others with your "ABC precision master programming company" with 500yrs experience.


    To the rest, I have lost count how many morons have contacted up wanting parts, then saying "I can program it for you"....lmfao. Next time, I am going to tell them ,"Yes, we will be using a Mazak Integrex 200. program that shit up and we will get it going"........ Reality is if they even get close, we might hire them, but I would throw a stiff wager on what we will actually get......

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  24. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    I'm not following the connection to my comment?
    My point was no matter how much information you give certain operators to run their job they will find something wrong to not run the job.

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    Appreciate all the feedback! I threw out he question originally more as a survey and didn't expect all the negativity. I have represented a bad company and now I represent one of the best and we program for OEM's and major sub-tiers. When you receive an award of 100 parts and have 1 programmer and parts are due in 16 weeks then that is where we come in and assure delivery assurance. We have a couple of tier 1 companies that completely got rid of their NC department and use our services due to the experience level and multiple peer reviews to assure a good part every time. I worked for an OEM Supply Chain for 20 years and the #1 bottleneck when I transferred work from one vendor to another was NC Programming. Thanks everyone!

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    Well, good luck in your little venture. I understand that Kansas manufacturing shops are laying off machinist by the hundreds right now. My inbox has more resumes than we can review.

    and now I represent one of the best and we program for OEM's and major sub-tiers.
    Sounds like one of those companies that say "Leading manufacturer" on their advertisements. What makes your company you work for "One of the best"? Did Toyota or Forbes come in and do a case study or is this something just made up? Hey I get it, I would love to say my company is one of the best, But in all actuality what and who is comparing?


    When you receive an award of 100 parts and have 1 programmer and parts are due in 16 weeks.
    Something is very wrong with a company that has enough time to bid on 100 different part, win said bid on 100 different parts, then only have one programmer to make 100 different parts. If someone is getting that many wins on orders they can surely get more programmers. Better yet, That's 80 work days for 100 parts. What if they are simple parts? I have guys/girls programming 5,10,15 parts a day., Doesn't take long to key a shaft or thread a rod. Complexity plays a big factor in that scenario.

    that is where we come in and assure delivery assurance
    Now this is confusing, You are just a programer. How are you going to guarantee anything other than delivering a program that may or may not work? You're not managing the project are you? If you this would make you a manufacturing consultant which would nullify this whole thread.

    We have a couple of tier 1 companies that completely got rid of their NC department and use our services
    Thats not saying much, One of my shops was a tier one supplier for CSX railroad for 20+ years without a full time programmer.

    due to the experience level and multiple peer reviews to assure a good part every time
    I don't care if you have 20 programmers look at every program there is no way you can "assure" a good part every time.
    If you can, I sure would like to know the secret. After 30+ years of building turnkey machine shops and factory management in nine countries, Sometimes overseeing 600+ machinist in a single shop,,, I have never met any one person that could produce a good part every time.

    In the real machinist world if someone says they don't have a fk up they are either a liar or have never been in a shop.



    your whole lip service sounds just like that guy thats posting off site programmer jobs all over craigslist and linkedin. To many people are popping up on the net now a days with no credentials claiming to do contract programming. Like I said before, these people are just too lazy to get a real job and want to sit on their ass at home with a pirated version of CAD/CAM and no insurance banging around on forums.

    This site has enough people patting themselves on the back with no credentials as it is, Take that artificial self value to facebook.

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  28. #39
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    We are looking for a CNC programming service for a new Brother Speedio R650X1.

    Any recommendations are greatly appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honeybul View Post
    We are looking for a CNC programming service for a new Brother Speedio R650X1.

    Any recommendations are greatly appreciated.
    This thread is still on the front page.

    Brent

    cnc programming service


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