5 axis automation? Prepackaged systems or custom integration? Who to look at?

Edster · Mar 13, 2017

I'm thinking of automating our 5 axis machine. I'd like to do something simple like how a fms system works with pallets on a horizontal. I was thinking of using a Schunk Vero-S unit to clamp on the machine with M codes. Then building my own pallets that the robot would load and unload. On the pallets would be various different fixtures/workholding but the pallets would all be the same. The robot grippers would never change, and the programming for the robot wouldn't change either.

I saw a few prepackaged systems and like the simplicity. Yamazen's Flex M system looks promising.

FLEX Robotic Automation System | Compact Machining Center - Yamazen

Erowa also has a few prepackaged systems and they seem to have a good reputation.

Robot Systems - EROWA AG

I've also see the versabuilt system, but I don't think their system that uses softjaws as grippers and workholding would work the best for me.

VersaBuilt | Home

Also what other systems besides the Schunk Vero-S are out there and a good fit for this type of setup? I already have a Vero-S clamping module that I was planning to use, but there might be something better for this application that I don't know about.

The prepackaged systems look like the easiest way to step into a system like this. This would be our first robot in the shop. My goals is to have as many pallets as possible in the system, so I can run overnight. I also need the pallets to be relatively inexpensive and I'd like to use as little floor space as possible. So will a prepackaged solution be the best or a custom integration?

Thanks in advance! :cheers:

dstryr · Mar 13, 2017

A fanuc robot that loads and unloads the schunk pallets would be the best for you I think since you already invested into this system.

Should be able to build your own "rack" and change in as many as you want if the robot can reach it.

Did you get a huge production job for the machine? Ive thought about this for my 5 axis machines but they are smaller tool magazines and in the end its not worth it for 30 tools.

Edster · Mar 13, 2017

I didn't get a huge production job. The job I'm currently running is 1000 pcs. Cycle time on the Mazak is a little over 5 minutes. I have to have someone babysit the machine because I'm only running one part at a time. I wanted to free up an operator and get some unattended run time at the end of the day.

The 5 axis machine is kind of like a lathe, it's only running one part at a time. On my lathe I use the barfeeder if I'm running a 100pc order or a 2000pc order. I'm hoping that a simple automation system where I'm not changing grippers and reprogramming and setting up a robot will work like a barfeeder.

I already have the Vero S clamping module, but I don't have any pallets for it yet. So I'm invested but not so far that I can't go another direction.

I have a 4 position Vero S system on the Mazak and I was going to build a 4 to 1 adaptor so I can run smaller fixtures on the Mazak. That's why I already have the single clamping module. But I never had time or an open mill to make the 4 to 1 adaptor.

Roooster · Mar 13, 2017

I recently fitted an Erowa ERC80 to two Hurco VMX30Ui 5 axis machines in Ireland. Very nice system, easy to use, good quality.

dstryr · Mar 13, 2017

What does your parts look like? Can you just add more than 1 part at a load?

Lang has a nice system that might be perfect for you. I looked at it extensively but couldn't get around the size limitations for my style of parts.

LANG Automation Eco-Compact 2 - YouTube

troy.k · Mar 13, 2017

Doing this to our matsuura mx-520. Check out our instagram @tkmsusa Let me know if you have questions. Getting ready to build our chuck if you want one. Schunk Vero-s on a particular spacing.

Sent from my HTC6515LVW using Tapatalk

Edster · Mar 13, 2017

dstryr said:
What does your parts look like? Can you just add more than 1 part at a load?

Lang has a nice system that might be perfect for you. I looked at it extensively but couldn't get around the size limitations for my style of parts.

LANG Automation Eco-Compact 2 - YouTube

The lang system looks nice.

I could make a fixture that holds more parts, but I'd have to index the fixture around to load it. Our J500's door would have to be closed, and opened between indexes. It would take a while to load the fixture. It also wouldn't fit on the new machine.

My parts are all relativley small.

Edster · Mar 13, 2017

troy.k said:
Doing this to our matsuura mx-520. Check out our instagram @tkmsusa Let me know if you have questions. Getting ready to build our chuck if you want one. Schunk Vero-s on a particular spacing.

Sent from my HTC6515LVW using Tapatalk

Nice setup! Very similar to what I was thinking of doing. What made you go with two vero s clamping modules? I was thinking about one NSE plus 138-v1 with a notch for radial orientation.

https://pl.schunk.com/pl_en/clamping-technology/product/47559-0471095-nse-plus-138-v1/

I think it will work good for our application. The machine were looking at has turning capability, and I'm not sure if it will work in turning applications. I'm waiting for our Schunk rep to get back to me on that.

ManualEd · Mar 13, 2017

Does this mean the 5 axis work for your Mazak showed up?

troy.k · Mar 14, 2017

We tested various current units with the timing notch and were not happy with repeatability. Though we did not test Schunk. By that point I said forget it and went with what I knew would work.

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TimD · Mar 14, 2017

dstryr said:
Lang has a nice system that might be perfect for you. I looked at it extensively but couldn't get around the size limitations for my style of parts.

LANG Automation Eco-Compact 2 - YouTube

The next video Youtube queued up for me showed the Lang gravity feed tower that looked interesting.
LANG Eco-Tower Automation System - YouTube

troy.k · Mar 14, 2017

From what I gathered from talking with Eric at Lang, they do not support the Eco Tower in the US. They do have a really neat robotic solution they have come up with but i do not know if it is supported in the US. We went the route we are going because the same pallet can be used for ANY application. We will have the same pallet running on a 3 axis VMC, 4 axis VMC, 4 axis HMC and 5 axis VMC. Future plans are to use it on a mill turn as well. All workholding is interchangable between any machine.

Tonytn36 · Mar 14, 2017

i use the Erowa Pallet P system on our 5 axis, loaded via 30 kg Kawasaki Robot. We also use Erowa pallets on the Mikrons as it is a standard option for those machines. The Pallet P system uses what is basically a pull stud and a Hirth coupling, repeatability is a couple microns in all directions. I made custom pallets with a built-in grip for the robot gripper to grab. You can buy just the location ring and pull stud from Erowa if they don't have an actual pallet you like. I use standard Schunk grippers on the robot with custom jaws.

youngwerth · Mar 14, 2017

Edster said:
I'm thinking of automating our 5 axis machine. I'd like to do something simple like how a fms system works with pallets on a horizontal. I was thinking of using a Schunk Vero-S unit to clamp on the machine with M codes. Then building my own pallets that the robot would load and unload. On the pallets would be various different fixtures/workholding but the pallets would all be the same. The robot grippers would never change, and the programming for the robot wouldn't change either.

I saw a few prepackaged systems and like the simplicity. Yamazen's Flex M system looks promising.

FLEX Robotic Automation System | Compact Machining Center - Yamazen

Erowa also has a few prepackaged systems and they seem to have a good reputation.

Robot Systems - EROWA AG

I've also see the versabuilt system, but I don't think their system that uses softjaws as grippers and workholding would work the best for me.

VersaBuilt | Home

Also what other systems besides the Schunk Vero-S are out there and a good fit for this type of setup? I already have a Vero-S clamping module that I was planning to use, but there might be something better for this application that I don't know about.

The prepackaged systems look like the easiest way to step into a system like this. This would be our first robot in the shop. My goals is to have as many pallets as possible in the system, so I can run overnight. I also need the pallets to be relatively inexpensive and I'd like to use as little floor space as possible. So will a prepackaged solution be the best or a custom integration?

Thanks in advance!

Why don't you think the VersaBuilt MultiGrip jaw system would work for you? It looks like most of the other systems you are looking at are pallet loaders, many of those loading a vise on a pallet. If you want to run say 50 parts unattended that requires purchasing 50 vises, pretty expensive. If your parts require more than one operation, then you'll have to fixture your parts twice and the second op will likely require machined jaws. That's a lot of jaws too. And a lot of part handling.

A VersaBuilt VBX-160 will tend a two op part to completion with just two sets of inexpensive soft jaws. Set raw material on the shelf, the VBX-160 puts completed, cleaned parts back on the shelf. Job setup is about 60 seconds. The VBX-160 requires less labor, has lower per part number tooling costs and typically more capacity than pallet loaders.

The VBX-160 can also be configured for pallet loading but we have yet to have a customer choose pallet loading for their application over the MultiGrip jaws. There are definitely some applications where a pallet will make sense but generally, using MultGrip jaws results in lower labor and tooling costs.

Give us a call and send us some 3-d models and we can show you how your part can be tended and what the cost benefits are vs other solutions.

Edster · Mar 14, 2017

ManualEd said:
Does this mean the 5 axis work for your Mazak showed up?

I've got some work for the Mazak. I'd try to automate it but there is no way to plumb air through the trunnion. I asked Mazak and there response was to order the machine with it next time. I'd also have to go through the front door with the robot, there is no way to have the robot come through the side of the machine like with Yamazen's Flex M system. The Mazak also takes up a ton of space and needs a lot of room for the conveyor and coolant tank to come out the rear. It's not located in a convienent spot in the shop for the operator now, and there would be no room for a robot.

Edster · Mar 14, 2017

youngwerth said:
Why don't you think the VersaBuilt MultiGrip jaw system would work for you? It looks like most of the other systems you are looking at are pallet loaders, many of those loading a vise on a pallet. If you want to run say 50 parts unattended that requires purchasing 50 vises, pretty expensive. If your parts require more than one operation, then you'll have to fixture your parts twice and the second op will likely require machined jaws. That's a lot of jaws too. And a lot of part handling.

A VersaBuilt VBX-160 will tend a two op part to completion with just two sets of inexpensive soft jaws. Set raw material on the shelf, the VBX-160 puts completed, cleaned parts back on the shelf. Job setup is about 60 seconds. The VBX-160 requires less labor, has lower per part number tooling costs and typically more capacity than pallet loaders.

The VBX-160 can also be configured for pallet loading but we have yet to have a customer choose pallet loading for their application over the MultiGrip jaws. There are definitely some applications where a pallet will make sense but generally, using MultGrip jaws results in lower labor and tooling costs.

Give us a call and send us some 3-d models and we can show you how your part can be tended and what the cost benefits are vs other solutions.

I was hoping not to have to do any setup with the robot. Basically just set it up once and go kind of like a HMC pallet pool. I'd like to make changeovers as simple for the guys in the shop as possible.

I'd like to also try to avoid dealing with chips/contaminantes causing the parts to not seat correctly in the fixtures. An operator clamping them would eliminate most of the issues.

I also don't want to be locked into using your vises or softjaws. I'd like to be able to roll my own workholding.

This would be used in a five axis application so clearance is an issue and it's hard to beat the clearance available from dovetail type fixtures.

I'm planning to run first op on the 5ax machine. Second op will be run during the day on an R450X1 loaded by hand. I don't need complete parts made with the robot. My goals are to unchain an operator from a machine during the day, and to gain some unattended run time at night.

I do like your system though. The layout is very nice, and it looks like it has enough capacity. I just like the pallet idea better than softjaws.

youngwerth · Mar 14, 2017

Edster said:
I was hoping not to have to do any setup with the robot. Basically just set it up once and go kind of like a HMC pallet pool. I'd like to make changeovers as simple for the guys in the shop as possible.

I'd like to also try to avoid dealing with chips/contaminantes causing the parts to not seat correctly in the fixtures. An operator clamping them would eliminate most of the issues.

I also don't want to be locked into using your vises or softjaws. I'd like to be able to roll my own workholding.

This would be used in a five axis application so clearance is an issue and it's hard to beat the clearance available from dovetail type fixtures.

I'm planning to run first op on the 5ax machine. Second op will be run during the day on an R450X1 loaded by hand. I don't need complete parts made with the robot. My goals are to unchain an operator from a machine during the day, and to gain some unattended run time at night.

I do like your system though. The layout is very nice, and it looks like it has enough capacity. I just like the pallet idea better than softjaws.

I don't think there is a faster or easier changeover than with the VBX-160. For height, we are basically a Schunk 160mm clamping block plus about 1.5". We can setup our system with pallets as well. We have an integrated wash tank that takes care of the chips. We now have more than 30 of these systems in lights-out production environments. Not saying that chips are never a problem but very close to never (usually lack of PM). You do control your own workholding by machining your own MultiGrip jaws. We also give you the 3-d models and a license to produce your own machinable jaw tops. About $6 in material to make your own jaws.

At IMTS, we had a guy walk through the booth that had just issued a PO for two Erowa pallet loaders. After he saw what ours could do, he cancelled his PO and ordered two VBX-160s. He now has two more VBX-160s on order. They really are incredibly flexible, easy to add new part numbers to and have lower tooling and operational costs than pallet loaders for most applications.

If you send us a 3-d model we will do an evaluation at no cost. Best of luck in whatever you choose.

troy.k · Mar 14, 2017

Edster said:
I've got some work for the Mazak. I'd try to automate it but there is no way to plumb air through the trunnion. I asked Mazak and there response was to order the machine with it next time. I'd also have to go through the front door with the robot, there is no way to have the robot come through the side of the machine like with Yamazen's Flex M system. The Mazak also takes up a ton of space and needs a lot of room for the conveyor and coolant tank to come out the rear. It's not located in a convienent spot in the shop for the operator now, and there would be no room for a robot.

We're coming up with a solution for the chuck we're building so you don't need air thru the table. We can't get air thru on our mx. Use a pneumatic slide for the door. There is likely logic in the ladder for an auto door. We're setting our robot off to the side of the operator door to allow normal access during the day. Really sounds like a setup you're looking for.

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dstryr · Mar 14, 2017

youngwerth said:
I don't think there is a faster or easier changeover than with the VBX-160. For height, we are basically a Schunk 160mm clamping block plus about 1.5". We can setup our system with pallets as well. We have an integrated wash tank that takes care of the chips. We now have more than 30 of these systems in lights-out production environments. Not saying that chips are never a problem but very close to never (usually lack of PM). You do control your own workholding by machining your own MultiGrip jaws. We also give you the 3-d models and a license to produce your own machinable jaw tops. About $6 in material to make your own jaws.

At IMTS, we had a guy walk through the booth that had just issued a PO for two Erowa pallet loaders. After he saw what ours could do, he cancelled his PO and ordered two VBX-160s. He now has two more VBX-160s on order. They really are incredibly flexible, easy to add new part numbers to and have lower tooling and operational costs than pallet loaders for most applications.

If you send us a 3-d model we will do an evaluation at no cost. Best of luck in whatever you choose.

How much for a pallet version?
What am I limited to for part size?

Tonytn36 · Mar 15, 2017

Edster said:
I was hoping not to have to do any setup with the robot. Basically just set it up once and go kind of like a HMC pallet pool. I'd like to make changeovers as simple for the guys in the shop as possible.

That is the way mine is set up. I have 3 pallets on a table the robot picks from. Unlike what you want to do, I have another robot that loads the parts on the pallets at the table because I'm in an automated production situation, but that really makes no difference. I could have 40 pallets around the robot if needed.

5 axis automation? Prepackaged systems or custom integration? Who to look at?

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