5-axis machine evaluation

Green newbie here...
Decades of experience generating NC programs from CAM software on a keyboard, but CNC operating experience is virtually non-existent.

I've been asked to help evaluate submissions for purchase of an entry level simultaneous 5-axis machine for delivery and commission later this year. The machine will likely be used for 1-off development work and showcasing new manufacturing technologies in a demonstration environment based in the UK. Budget £175-£230k ($250-$325k)

The shortlist follows. Any advice; things to watch out for, personal experience of any in the list?

• Chester 620-5AX | Siemens 840D
• Emco Maxxmill 750 | Siemens 840D SL
• Hermle C250 | Heidenhain TNC 640
• Doosan DVF5000 | Fanuc 31iB5
• Mazak CV5-500 | Mazatrol Smooth X

What is your budget?

plastikdreams said:

What is your budget?

Click to expand...

Based on the variety of machines presented, either nothing, or unlimited...

Andy Harpur said:

Green newbie here...
Decades of experience generating NC programs from CAM software on a keyboard, but CNC operating experience is virtually non-existent.

I've been asked to help evaluate submissions for purchase of an entry level simultaneous 5-axis machine for delivery and commission later this year. The machine will likely be used for 1-off development work and showcasing new manufacturing technologies in a demonstration environment based in the UK.

The shortlist follows. Any advice; things to watch out for, personal experience of any in the list?

• Chester 620-5AX
• Emco Maxxmill 750
• Hermle C250
• Doosan DVF5000
• Mazak CV5-500

Click to expand...

First quick pass.

The standout here is the MAZAk CV5-500*

,
You've (@Andy Harpur) probably seen this.

So the CV5-500 is designed, and built , in the UK.

AFIK it's not available anywhere else (maybe Europe) but not sold in the USA.

The other standout is that it's a bridge construction AND the trunion goes through the bridge which IMO is (theoretically) the best layout for a 5 axis vertical.

The one drawback maybe is that the machining processes are not very visible and one might need a camera in the machine and a separate larger monitor to show what's going on (like in the video above). [In terms of what is exhibition friendly / didactic.].

You might want to bug Mark Hall at Mazak UK directly and see the machine in person and see "Peeps" that are currently running the machine in the U.K.

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• Chester 620-5AX
  
  (^^^ Looks like a rebadged Litz - no judgement. )
  
  .
  
• Emco Maxxmill 750
  
  .
  
  (^^^Where I am emco is singularly unresponsive ~ UK to Austria might be easier for EMCO for you,),
  
  
• Hermle C250
  
  .
  
  (^^^ Good option, good support not so UK originated but more didactic [Exhibition friendly], in terms of layout and more ergonomic IMO, better visibility of machining processes + 600mm in X and small / skinny spindle head - GOOD. )
  
  .
  
• Doosan DVF5000
  
  .
  
  (^^^ a worthy offering if you can get scales and maybe even Heidenhain control .).
  
  
• Mazak CV5-500

(^^^ as above ).

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* Caveat is - theoretically - you just need to make sure they didn't make any serious design blunders, in the past MAZAK Kentucky made some "Odd" design decisions with their home grown 5 axis machine (a few years ago re: X travel and tilt of a knuckle trunnion.).

TeachMePlease said:

Based on the variety of machines presented, either nothing, or unlimited...

Click to expand...

Nahhh I think those are all in a similar price range ; but for really (accurate) 5 axis then things dooooo (unfortunately ) lean toward "Unlimited" budget :-(

The Hermle C-250 is about $350K ish - but has options / aspects snipped off - to make it "Entry level" Hermle.

Chester and Hermle in the same list is a huge red flag as to the validity of your shortlisting process...

gregormarwick said:

Chester and Hermle in the same list is a huge red flag as to the validity of your shortlisting process...

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What's "Chester's" bag ? That's a UK integrator , probably has a lot of LITZ like ingredients (which can be good) but I guess from what you intimate; is Chester a bit "Sketchy" lower grade or just more grungy ?

Machine might be "Good" on paper ...

Also,

@Andy Harper seems in the U.K. Folks can get good deals on Matsuura,

seems well supported,

MX-520 ?

Andy Harpur said:

Green newbie here...
Decades of experience generating NC programs from CAM software on a keyboard, but CNC operating experience is virtually non-existent.

I've been asked to help evaluate submissions for purchase of an entry level simultaneous 5-axis machine for delivery and commission later this year. The machine will likely be used for 1-off development work and showcasing new manufacturing technologies in a demonstration environment based in the UK.

The shortlist follows. Any advice; things to watch out for, personal experience of any in the list?

• Chester 620-5AX
• Emco Maxxmill 750
• Hermle C250
• Doosan DVF5000
• Mazak CV5-500

Click to expand...

out of that list, Hermle C250 BY FAAAAAAAAAR!

cameraman said:

What's "Chester's" bag ? That's a UK integrator , probably has a lot of LITZ like ingredients (which can be good) but I guess from what you intimate; is Chester a bit "Sketchy" lower grade or just more grungy ?

Machine might be "Good" on paper ...

Also,

@Andy Harper seems in the U.K. Folks can get good deals on Matsuura,

seems well supported,

MX-520 ?

Click to expand...

Chester are an importer of garbage tier Chinese manual machinery. That's their core business. I strongly suspect they have zero or low single digit numbers of those machines deployed on the ground. Iron is probably fine, plenty of other off-brands using that same frame. Hurco use it too I am pretty sure. If OP has any sense, he'll let someone else be Chester's guinea pig.

As to the others, in the UK market, Emco are rare like hen's teeth. Not sure if I've ever seen one outside of an educational environment. Mazak are notorious for not giving a fuck about their small customers. Hermle are Hermle. If OP really needs a Hermle I assume he'd know as much. Doosan are a real solid option here in the UK - they are prolific and well supported.

As per the MX-520, yes it's a strange omission, which supports my scepticism of how that list was compiled in the first place.

gregormarwick said:

<snip> Mazak are notorious for not giving a fuck about their small customers. <snip>

Click to expand...

Well there you have it

_____________

That was quick - NEXT

Budget £175-£230k ($250-$325k), but part of a much larger budget for equipping a new facility.

empwoer said:

out of that list, Hermle C250 BY FAAAAAAAAAR!

Click to expand...

Unfortunately the Hermle has the smallest table (Ø320 mm) by far. Ø450 mm is a cost option, but still smaller than the other options.

gregormarwick said:

Chester and Hermle in the same list is a huge red flag as to the validity of your shortlisting process...

Click to expand...

@gregormarwick . The purchase is linked to an educational establishment which, using public money, has to go through a transparent tender process. The machines listed are from those suppliers that took time to provide a quote based on a machine specification. Matsuura are not represented because they didn't submit to the tender process which has now passed it's closing date....

Andy Harpur said:

Unfortunately the Hermle has the smallest table (Ø320 mm) by far. Ø450 mm is a cost option, but still smaller than the other options.

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You might want to double or triple check the size and geometry of parts you want to run.

The Hermle C-250 has the option of side plates for larger longer parts and has a 700 mm ish (if memory serves me right) collision circle.

I personally prefer a longer skinnier trunnion with a smaller table and a slim / skinny mill head, as that means parts don't have to be fixtured so far off the table and I can still hit three sides of a longer part. (that's more a function of our applications and parts/ system geometries.).

A BIG head + a big table (like on a lot of "Universals" means you have to fixture in some cases at least 8" ++ off the table. [That's not always problematic but if you are shooting for rigidity and shorter tools via 5 axis that can (in some instances be a problem). [I think @bryan_machine clued me in on that issue / problem originally .]. + discussion of what can be easily "Groked" or not.

For some 5 axis verticals you can loose a lot of Y travel or Z part height / length with a trunnion tipped over having to fixture stuff 8" off a table.

The MX 520 had the idea of the rectangular table + inset circular table so one could do 2nd ops / top-tail parts or do longer parts on 3 sides - but seems a lot of folks "Poo poo" that idea also.

As you can see in the MAZAK video they took the bull by the horns and fixtured parts on various slanted angles rather than having parts be orthogonal to the axes of a machine , but to do that well requires really good accuracy of the rotational axes of the machine itself.

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A DMU 50 3rd gen might be an option for you also... [Seems stable so far ] does what it says it does "on the tin" but might be out of your budget range depending on options.

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@Andy Harpur - what is the lifetime of the project you are working on, I've worked for a number of nonprofits / government agencies and sometimes with tech related stuff there's the question of future replacement of equipment ...

Do the machines you purchase pretty much have to last for ever or is there a plan for further rounds of funding and development if things go well initially ? [Maybe I re-read the initial "Brief" .].

Andy Harpur said:

Unfortunately the Hermle has the smallest table (Ø320 mm) by far. Ø450 mm is a cost option, but still smaller than the other options.

Click to expand...

the swing is larger than the table, get a bit more creative with the workholding. the machine is worth the little extra workaround. Hermle has possibly one of the best integrations of heidenhain control with machine. the combo is such a joy to work with!

empwoer said:

the swing is larger than the table, get a bit more creative with the workholding. the machine is worth the little extra workaround. Hermle has possibly one of the best integrations of heidenhain control with machine. the combo is such a joy to work with!

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OP is ceilinged to $325 K so the Hermle C250 might be out of reach , also Hermle get a bit fussy or insistent on tool balancing equipment for the 18K spindle etc. So there's other "accoutrements" that may nudge a Hermle C-250 idea more towards $400K / £ 280 ++ / out of reach.

[There is a 15K spindle option.].

Depends what kind of deals can be swung / incentive I guess.

At least the MAZAK option is designed and built in the U.K. [can't comment on support etc. ]. With UK exhibition status I don't know if @Andy Harpur can get a "Hotline" to MAZAK UK service department ? ].

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Okuma (Genos) M460 V 5ax ? (check part geometries and true working volume ).

cameraman said:

OP is ceilinged to $325 K so the Hermle C250 might be out of reach , also Hermle get a bit fussy or insistent on tool balancing equipment for the 18K spindle etc. So there's other "accoutrements" that may nudge a Hermle C-250 idea more towards $400K / £ 280 ++ / out of reach.

[There is a 15K spindle option.].

Depends what kind of deals can be swung / incentive I guess.

At least the MAZAK option is designed and built in the U.K. [can't comment on support etc. ]. With UK exhibition status I don't know if @Andy Harpur can get a "Hotline" to MAZAK UK service department ? ].

__________________

Okuma (Genos) M460 V 5ax ? (check part geometries and true working volume ).

Click to expand...

OP mentioned its part of a bigger budget for the whole facility, might be room to squeeze for a top notch machine?

Haven't seen anything from the OP about the kind of parts to be made. Size, geometry, tolerance, material?