5 Axis machine Selection

msayani2 · Jun 20, 2021

Recently we have come to the conclusion that we need to replace our 5 axis machine with another due to repeated downtime.

I was wondering if seasoned 5 axis machine shop guys could give some feedback on what they ahve seen or heard from a trusted source regarding the performance of the machines that we are considering.

Requirements -

Continuous 5 Axis,
800mm upto 1100mm table.
1000 kg workpiece weight capacity,
HSK 63 or 100 spindle- 18,000 to 24,000 rpm
positional accuracy under 8 microns (3/10 of a thou)
20 bar or 40 bar spindle through coolant
cooled machine components - spindle, ways, ballscrew
Materials cut - aluminum, cast iron, Stainless, 17-4PH.

Contenders:

Doosan DVF8000
DMG DMU95 monoblock
Hermle C42
Okuma MU8000V
Grob G550 (maybe out of budget?)
Hwacheon M3 adn M4-5AX

If there is anyone with personal experience with these machines, do let me know which you think we should go for. We do high accuracy jobs with high productivity and reliability, performance, repeatability all in the long term are important (in that order). We dont want to overspend either

Feedback is much appreciated. If you feel I should look at some other machine, do suggest.

Thank you.

DouglasJRizzo · Jun 20, 2021

IMO Okuma is the best but pricey. Worth every nickle tho.
Doosan is a great value. Granted, I'm biased, I used to work for them, but good bang for the buck. Grob is top drawer like Okuma but VERY expensive.
No experience with the others.

boosted · Jun 20, 2021

The C42 and G550 are in a totally different class of machine than the others, with the Okuma stuck somewhere between the two classes.

For DMG MORI you should possibly be looking at a duoblock, especially considering the size of that DMU95.

Finding a spindle that can operate at that RPM while still hogging hard metals is going to involve comprimise. Both the Hermle and Grob have really underwhelming "standard" spindles. Both will offer an aerospace spindle, but IIRC you loose a ton of low speed torque.

empower · Jun 20, 2021

msayani2 said:
Recently we have come to the conclusion that we need to replace our 5 axis machine with another due to repeated downtime.

I was wondering if seasoned 5 axis machine shop guys could give some feedback on what they ahve seen or heard from a trusted source regarding the performance of the machines that we are considering.

Requirements -

Continuous 5 Axis,
800mm upto 1100mm table.
1000 kg workpiece weight capacity,
HSK 63 or 100 spindle- 18,000 to 24,000 rpm
positional accuracy under 8 microns (3/10 of a thou)
20 bar or 40 bar spindle through coolant
cooled machine components - spindle, ways, ballscrew
Materials cut - aluminum, cast iron, Stainless, 17-4PH.

Contenders:

Doosan DVF8000
DMG DMU95 monoblock
Hermle C42
Okuma MU8000V
Grob G550 (maybe out of budget?)
Hwacheon M3 adn M4-5AX

If there is anyone with personal experience with these machines, do let me know which you think we should go for. We do high accuracy jobs with high productivity and reliability, performance, repeatability all in the long term are important (in that order). We dont want to overspend either

Feedback is much appreciated. If you feel I should look at some other machine, do suggest.

Thank you.

out of those, Hermle or Grob. fanuc controls suck so doosan is out. DMG is a reliability nightmare, so thats out. Okuma is --- meh. dont even know what the hwacheon is.
personal experience with a hermle C12 and it is a treat to work with/on! get it with a pallet system and you'll have a ridiculous production setup.

empower · Jun 20, 2021

DouglasJRizzo said:
IMO Okuma is the best but pricey. Worth every nickle tho.
Doosan is a great value. Granted, I'm biased, I used to work for them, but good bang for the buck. Grob is top drawer like Okuma but VERY expensive.
No experience with the others.

okuma better than hermle? lemme have some of that shit you're smoking!

Vancbiker · Jun 20, 2021

Since the OP stated reliability was important along with performance and accuracy a Makino D800Z ought to make the short list.

Also with the same requirements, a Yasda YBM10T-100TT would make a fine choice though it is a horizontal spindle.

Mitsui Seiki are also very reliable and accurate but again in a larger machine will be a horizontal.

boosted · Jun 20, 2021

empwoer said:
fanuc controls suck so doosan is out.

I'm not a huge Doosan fan, but they do have Heidenhain controllers as an option. Agreed that there is no freaking way I would even consider a vanilla Fanuc controller on a five axis in the year 2021. :crazy:

Even the Fanuc controllers with a really robust MTB overlay/upgrade (like Makino or DMG MORI) really make me hesitate. Controller performance should almost never bottleneck your workflow on a new machine.

msayani2 · Jun 20, 2021

How are the DVF series ? Anyone have experience with doosan 5 axis?

Also ive heard the dmg is pretty unreliable as well so im a bit hesitant to get it. Maybe ill get a quote for a 5 axis one from the made in japan range of it.

imachine909 · Jun 20, 2021

I have a DMU105 with TNC640 and DMC65 with 840D. Both have been fantastic machines bought new four years ago. Would buy again if doing it over again today.

Also have a C650 with TNC640 very solid machine with awesome service and support.

empower · Jun 20, 2021

boosted said:
I'm not a huge Doosan fan, but they do have Heidenhain controllers as an option. Agreed that there is no freaking way I would even consider a vanilla Fanuc controller on a five axis in the year 2021. Even the Fanuc controllers with a really robust MTB overlay/upgrade (like Makino or DMG MORI) really make me hesitate. Controller performance should almost never bottleneck your workflow on a new machine.

from what our doosan rep told me, by the time you add heinyhein control to a doosan, you're in the territory of other, potentially better machines that come with it natively.

but ya, fanuc is still stuck in the last millenium as far as user friendliness and capability goes for 5 axis machining.

mhajicek · Jun 20, 2021

What's entry level price on say a Hermle C 12?

empower · Jun 20, 2021

mhajicek said:
What's entry level price on say a Hermle C 12?

450ish new IIRC.

msayani2 · Jun 20, 2021

Im getting a doosan quote soon with siemens 840D fyi. Not Fanuc.

DouglasJRizzo · Jun 21, 2021

empwoer said:
okuma better than hermle? lemme have some of that shit you're smoking!

I don't "smoke."

And yeah, I think Okuma is superior. I own several, and they're rock solid. Near 40 years later, still holding tenths and can still tackle tough materials without strain or stalling. The OSP is a great control too.

Hermle is ok, but not really good, IMO, for hogging or tackling tough materials.

5 axis Fidia guy · Jun 21, 2021

This is easy, first off we went thru a difficult test cut several years back. We tested the Okuma, Hermle, Mikron, and Makino. Part surface finish and accuracy were number one consideration. We ended up with the Hermle C42 with the upgraded 25k spindle. It suits our needs perfectly, Mikron was second choice, then Makino, and Okuma was a complete waste of time. The control was just a complete puke reading the information and the machine was really struggling to hit the tolerance we were after. The Heidenhain just sailed with flying colors. DMG was not even a consideration based on people we know that have them.

empower · Jun 21, 2021

DouglasJRizzo said:
I don't "smoke."
And yeah, I think Okuma is superior. I own several, and they're rock solid. Near 40 years later, still holding tenths and can still tackle tough materials without strain or stalling. The OSP is a great control too.

Hermle is ok, but not really good, IMO, for hogging or tackling tough materials.

i know okuma is good, but to say its superior to Hermle is... you must be completely mad!
when you say hogging, you talking about doing old school style roughing with high step over and slow feed? because i've not had ANY issues doing high speed roughing on stainless and 4140 on ours.

metalmadness · Jun 21, 2021

boosted said:
I'm not a huge Doosan fan, but they do have Heidenhain controllers as an option. Agreed that there is no freaking way I would even consider a vanilla Fanuc controller on a five axis in the year 2021. Even the Fanuc controllers with a really robust MTB overlay/upgrade (like Makino or DMG MORI) really make me hesitate. Controller performance should almost never bottleneck your workflow on a new machine.

I won't even buy a Fanuc controller if someone paid me to do it. With the advent of the 21st century things like non-moronic interfaces and touchscreens I am shocked they are still living like it is 1991! Wooo!

Heidenhain or Sinumerik all day for me.

empower · Jun 21, 2021

metalmadness said:
I won't even buy a Fanuc controller if someone paid me to do it. With the advent of the 21st century things like non-moronic interfaces and touchscreens I am shocked they are still living like it is 1991! Wooo!

Heidenhain or Sinumerik all day for me.

preach it!

metalmadness · Jun 21, 2021

msayani2 said:
How are the DVF series ? Anyone have experience with doosan 5 axis?

Also ive heard the dmg is pretty unreliable as well so im a bit hesitant to get it. Maybe ill get a quote for a 5 axis one from the made in japan range of it.

Titans of CNC had the Doosan rep on their ridiculous Boombastic show a few weeks ago, granted it is salesman talk but the DVF 8000 looks like a monster of a machine. Scales on all 5 axes, multiple spindle options, all thermal controlled axes (as should be) and many more features.

The DVF series looks like it is directly competing with DMU 50 and Monoblock series machines. Which I think is great!

If I needed a 5 axis that big, Doosan would absolutely be a serious contender.

metalmadness · Jun 21, 2021

empwoer said:
preach it!

I get the whole "dont fix it if it ain't broke" philosophy but, every other controller is ahead of Fanuc on usability. Cept maybe Yasnac. I've heard people really either love or hate the Okuma controller (mostly hate) but I haven't used it so I dunno.

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