5 Axis recommendation
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  1. #1
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    Default 5 Axis recommendation

    Hey PMers, good morning. I thought I would reach out to you and see if there is something you know about that I should look into. We are in the market for a new 5 axis for mold making.

    Curently we have a mori/DMG HSC 750 Linear, a Mikron HPM 1350U and a Fidia K165. The DMG and Mikron are less than 5 years old, but the Fidia is aging and is going to need some costly maintnence comming up so we will be replacing it.

    We are looking into a trunion style machine with a large work space capacity. Currently on the table are the Hermle C52 and DMG.

    The problem with the Hermle is it comes with an 18k spindle standard and the 24k spindle is much more money because it would be a custom build.

    The way the DMG is laid out it will be a pain in the ass to load and set up.

    We want to stick with HSK 63 tooling and would prefer heidenhain control.

    Is there any other brands I should be looking into....

    I have quickly but not thoroughly investigated Matsuurra, Okk, Yasda, Makino, Okuma, Grob but not many make a machine in this size range.

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    Look into Alzmetall. From what you wrote, the GS or Gx series is what you're looking for.

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    I have never heard of them but yes they fit perfectly our criteria, I will have to look into this, thank you. How are they as far as quality?

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    Quality? You'll have to see one to appreciate it. Once you're serious about getting one, visit them and see for yourself. They are NOT "American type" commodity machines.

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    Didnt mean to sound disrespectful to the brand, Just am not familiar. Where do they compare to a Hermle.

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    You didn't, by any means, sound disrespectful. I read it as intended. Sorry for responding as though you were.

    I actually mean you HAVE to see one. They are serious machines. Hermle, for example, is a very nice machine; no question about it. Now, sit one next to a GS1000, the Hermle looks like a bitch. I'm not trying to be funny or brag. I'm dead serious. The overall mass, the spindle column, the size of the trunnion torque motors, ETC. ETC.

    Said and done, I doubt many shops need one. They will be fine with Hermle, DMG, Mitsui Seiki, ETC. For large, 5 axis, metal removal requirements, Alzmetall is worth a look.

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    I am getting info on them as we speak. If they make Hermle look like a bitch it may be a little out of our price range. I dono the spacifics but I believe the Hermle is around 1.2 mil. We shall see what transpires and thank you again!.

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    The one thing that Hermle has (in my experience) is unmatched service and support. The machines are not only super accurate, but work-horses that will produce day in day out.

    Admittedly, I do not have experience with Alzmetall, but managed a facility where we had Mikron, DMG, Fanuc, Hermle, and a few others. Not only was the Hermle the best machine in the shop, but sales, service and parts support was a significant step above the rest.

    As always: your mileage my vary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FK View Post
    Quality? You'll have to see one to appreciate it. Once you're serious about getting one, visit them and see for yourself. They are NOT "American type" commodity machines.
    Umm, since when were Hermle or DMG or Grob or Mikron or Yasda ever considered "American type" commodity machines?

    Also, who in the US is selling/servicing/supporting these Alzmetall machines? Google tells me that yours is the first mention of the brand on Practical Machinist aside from really sexy drill presses in the vintage sections. Don't get me wrong, they look kinda badass (which indicates someone gave a shit when designing/building them), but this looks like exotic Euro-centric iron that has little/no US footprint.

    Let's take a cue from Weiner's Law of Things With Wings:

    Exotic devices create exotic problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Umm, since when were Hermle or DMG or Grob or Mikron or Yasda ever considered "American type" commodity machines?

    Also, who in the US is selling/servicing/supporting these Alzmetall machines? Google tells me that yours is the first mention of the brand on Practical Machinist aside from really sexy drill presses in the vintage sections. Don't get me wrong, they look kinda badass (which indicates someone gave a shit when designing/building them), but this looks like exotic Euro-centric iron that has little/no US footprint.

    Let's take a cue from Weiner's Law of Things With Wings:

    Exotic devices create exotic problems.
    Must be the Europeanmachinetool guy from instagram
    European Machine Tools ・Milwaukee, Wisconsin Machine Tools Sales

    I dont think I've ever seen or heard anyone before this thread speak bad about hermle lol

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    I would recommend looking at Grob. I have two of their G350 machines and have nothing but good things to say about Grob and their support / machines.
    Just finished cutting some titanium parts (6x6x12) with 5" reach 3/4 endmills and the machine handles it like nothing. Machine is very rigid and the spindle is crazy strong.

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    My last job had 3 Hermles that have hard milled their whole 16ish years with 75% utilization over 3 shifts/5 days a week many of those years. Hermle keeps those machines running well. They are shopping for a new machine, DMG gave up on an M2 part we wanted test cut, Hermle came up with a solution and cut the part right.

    My job before that had an OKK that was larger and was a headache. He's been to Hermle recently looking at another machine. Not saying he's replacing the OKK, just doesn't look like he's buying another and he has 2 other 3 axis ones already.

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    I’d look into the roders they are great machines I’ve never personally ran one but a company in my area swears by them. They are only running a standard 3 axis model with an integrated 4th... look them up on YouTube their 5 axis models seem crazy fast and smooth.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NjlNV151Y4A

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    Around The World are many producers. Best for you is buying test piece. Interesting is Really five axis or 3+2 axis I have good experience with. Only for yours information
    Look on this. Handtmann A-Punkt Automation GmbH in Baienfurt | Produkte im Uberblick
    Regards Libor.

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    We were in your situation 2 years ago. Shopped around, did many test cuts. We looked at Hermle, Mikron, Okuma, Makino, etc.. The Hermle is sitting in our shop now, pallet changer, Heidenhain 640 control, all the latest bells and whistles. 2nd place finisher was the Mikron, a close second that is. I will caution you on the 18k spindle, it has the crush pillers in the spindle so it will take a little more beating, and it will swap out in a few hours with a replacement, BUT 18k for endless hours will be an issue in my opinion.(PM me on this if need be) We went with the 25k spindle. The Hermle spindle is not quite as nice as the Mikron StepTec in my book, but it's close. Machine is crazy accurate, and fast.

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    I agree with HSM_Chief: Röders could definitely be another line to investigate. I can't personally speak for their service/support, however they have the revs you may be looking for in a spindle. (any very high speed spindle won't be HSK63 though).

    If you were making small molds (and I'm guessing you may not be since you mentioned HSK63 tooling?), you could check out the Air Turbine option which would give you pretty much any revs you would ever need in the Hermle. Air Turbine has units specifically for Hermle: http://www.airturbinetools.com/pdf/d...For_Hermle.pdf

    That would provide the revs when making small parts, and you still have the strength of the HSK63 interface when doing heavier machining.

    PM

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    Quote Originally Posted by precisionmetal View Post
    .....(any very high speed spindle won't be HSK63 though).
    How high are you talking? The OP was looking at like 24K RPM. HSK63 is no trouble at that speed.

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    I know the roders they are running are 42k spindles. I’m not sure what the spindle taper is im positive it’s hsk but I couldn’t tell you exactly what it it’s. They also speak highly of the service techs in the area. I know the maintenance and upkeep on the machines is not cheap but they said no other machine touches them when it comes to speed and accuracy... they are mostly cutting 56-62rc tool steel on them everyday

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    That Mikron is a hell of a machine.

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    .... when it's running.


    Vancbiker, you are absolutely correct -- I missed that in the OP. thx.


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