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A 90's Fadal 4020 seems like the right garage CNC for me. Help choosing options?

jimfranks

Plastic
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
A 90's Haas VF3 was what I was pretty firm on until I read a whole bunch of recommendation threads here on the forum. I realized used Fadals have quite a few advantages over used Haas' if you are a one man operation and working with a tight budget.

I am mostly going to be milling flowing geometry very "sculptured" knife blades out of tool steel ( and sometimes a long aluminum part which is why I need the 40" X travel ). So to make accurate 3d shapes and also get a good surface finish is what I am looking for. I am not doing any high production so speed isn't really a factor. I will also use CAD/CAM almost exclusively.

I'm hoping for recommendations for what specific years are best to buy, what controller version is best, what spindle types to look for, and any other options or features that would be desirable.
 
I'd stay at least '93 and up.. That would be the 88HS control, as opposed to the CNC88.

93,94,95.. DC machines.. Limited memory, and it is expensive to upgrade, but not that big of
a deal with the new USB doo hickeys they have out now.

'96ish.. AC machines (the axis motors).. A tiny bit faster rapids. I think you could take the
memory up to 4 megs on those.

Watch out for machines from the early to mid 2000's, some of them are actually old machines that
went in for a paint job (rebuild).. Once in a while you'll see them on e-bay. 2004, and its a '93
with a paint job..

I wouldn't touch anything that was made by MAG, those would be mid 2000's ish.. Those 4525FX machines,
and stuff like that... If it has a Fanuc control on it, I wouldn't touch it.


If you plan on doing a lot of contouring, and small tool stuff.. Maybe look for a 4020A or a 4020L. both
of those have linear X and Y, and I think its the A that has a box Z, and the L has a linear Z..

I'm not sure about the 4020's, but it seems all the 3016L's I've seen lately have the lower horse 7500rpm
spindle, and the box 3016's all have the "High Torque" spindle, which is 2 speed and 10k... And there is
a HUGE difference between those 2 spindles... If you need POWER..


If you think you are going to want to add a 4th someday, just buy a machine with one.. Costs a TON
to add one and they don't add much to cost of a used machine. Prewired, yeah, there are a couple of
wires in there because it was cheaper for them to make one harness than 2 different ones, but you still
have to buy a BUNCH of stuff, and its spendy.

Also there are a lot of 4020's out there with the extended Z.. Its nice for 4th axis work and weird stuff,
but it does make the machine taller, and those extra 16 inches of travel at tool change time add up. If
the toolchanger is completely under the top sheet metal, its standard Z. If the top sheetmetal is cut out
and the tool changer is popping up a little bit, its an extended 28" Z.

As for options on the machine itself. Unless its hardware based (memory, 4th axis, rigid tapping e-proms etc.) its all
there. All the machines were pretty much identical, with very little difference, over many years.
 
Thanks for all the helpful advice! I thought I remembered seeing somewhere that the Fadal linear ways are prone to have issues and their box ways are a better choice.

From the measuremnets and specs I have gathered, I will just *barely* be able to get it through the garage door without having to do any real disassembly so I'm going to have to stay with the standard Z choices.
 
Thanks for all the helpful advice! I thought I remembered seeing somewhere that the Fadal linear ways are prone to have issues and their box ways are a better choice.

Anyone else have any recommendations? Also is the box ways a better choice like i heard?
 
Anyone else have any recommendations? Also is the box ways a better choice like i heard?

Not sure its a big difference unless you talking large material remove in steel. A AC motor machine should have a -5 CPU which allows for a 115K baud rate drip feed from a computer. This would help a lot for 3D surfacing.
 
I'm looking at the same mills as you , low ceiling in shop and door . The mills I looked at to be at or under 112-115" height are the 4020 Fedals , Okuma Cadets , Hardinge 1000's( so the 600 & 750's would also) .Haas Vf2 would also ,we have one so I got good dimensions but personally wouldn't even consider that brand. Hurco VSX24(?), VMX50 or 30bmc's (?)as another option, don't really have good or bad info on them really. There is Matsuura's as well, they'll often have higher atc #'s, but don't know the quality. The Fadal's(at least those I had investigated) and Cadet were box ways with the Hardinge being linear's . I am trying to opt for box ways , but it is easier to put new rails in when worn so it's one of those things and I don't think it's a huge difference between the two ways . I thing the box ways will be less vibrations when pushing it . I was told to look for the red cover on the axis servos as being the better quality than the yellow covered ones, but can't remember offhand the specifics .


.
 
Anyone else have any recommendations? Also is the box ways a better choice like i heard?

I don't have much knowledge on the differences between the two, but I have an older VMC20 I picked up a couple of years ago. I know its not fast and I've had to make a couple of repairs on it, but its paid for itself many times over. I don't feel too bad when its down since I'm not making payments on it. Originally I was lusting after a newer Haas, but this deal came up somewhat local to me. Its been a great machine for a one man operation.

J. Clear
 
I just bought a Fadal from the classifieds on here. You should seriously look into the others they have if you are serious. You won't find a nicer used machine for a better price. I think they have one still available that has 5k hours on it. They guys there couldn't be any easier to deal with. Mine is getting picked up tomorrow. They are newer, price is right, the machines are immaculate and well maintained and you can easily get parts when the time comes. They are one of the easiest VMCs to work on yourself.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...anted/fadals-sale-northern-california-354655/

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...es-fadal-reality-checklist-pre-2014-a-293726/
 
I have a 94, I wouldnt go older then this. Older machines have very fine pitch ballscrews and smaller servo motors which will run slower and a weird 3 belt drive system thats not as nice as the newer multi v groove setup. Older machines are more likely to have turcite trouble too. Older machines also have less beilville washers that flex more each cycle and need to be changed more. Try and find a machine with the 10,000 rpm spindle and high low range.

Two more negatives that come to mind about my 94 is the coolant drains from table in two holes instead of large slots, which sucks. And the table way oil line is just a piece of rubber hose dangling around under the table just waiting to catch on something and get torn off. I think both this issues were fixed in 95/96.

Good luck with it. A used Fadal is the best bang for buck for a first machine if you find a good one.
 
I just bought a Fadal from the classifieds on here. You should seriously look into the others they have if you are serious. You won't find a nicer used machine for a better price. I think they have one still available that has 5k hours on it. They guys there couldn't be any easier to deal with. Mine is getting picked up tomorrow. They are newer, price is right, the machines are immaculate and well maintained and you can easily get parts when the time comes. They are one of the easiest VMCs to work on yourself.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...anted/fadals-sale-northern-california-354655/

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...es-fadal-reality-checklist-pre-2014-a-293726/

At the risk of having Milacron rap my knuckles for posting outside the Machinery Sales forum, I want to add a few updated comments.

Aside from the particulars of any machine brand (which Bobw and others have already commented on) the basic problem with purchasing used machines is risk - the risk that comes with no warranty and the fact the machine is used. Although we might think highly of ourselves and what we're offering, we decided to 'up our game' with respect to this risk. Had our machinery service company come out and survey the three remaining machines - 2 x 3016 and 1 x 4020. We will be making the data available to interested parties once it is in .pdf form. The surveys only turned up one obvious fault - failing battery on circuit board (it has been or is being replaced).

The other obvious purchase problem is cost of transport; particularly outside of California. In state, we know of several reputable rigging/transport companies. But outside, it usually means a rigger at our end to get it on a third party truck for trip to destination, and finally another rigger at the other end. We don't want to have anything to do with the transport and end of trip rigging company. What we can do is have a reputable rigger here quote and load the machine, provide the names of some LTL truckers (less than full load to save money)to get it to destination. And finally, we are prepared to negotiate on price given our familiarity with the costs of such transportation.

Regarding the OP's questions about Fadal 4020: the one we have available right now is an extended column machine with 4/5 axis attachment (TR-65) - not suitable for average height garage door. As soon as we finish a current job, we will be readying another 4020 for sale that has standard height column. Will make that info available soon (sooner if anyone has to make an immediate decision).

Contact info is located in the Machinery Sales post listed in Quote at the top. Thanks.

Fred
 
I have a 1991 4020, If your looking at an older Fadal don't assume it has an older spec control, somewhere along it's life mine was upgraded from a -2 to a -4 control. I'd be surprised if there's many older spec controls out there as it's relatively cheap to upgrade. For what you want to do a -4 is more than adequate.

If it was me, and i was doing it all over again I'd get a Linear Rail machine. I wouldn't care if the previous owner hadn't greased it in 10 years, changing out the rails would be a 1-2 day job, not that expensive and your back in production. I know at some point I'm going to have to redo the Turcite on mine and am not looking forward to it.:(
 
There is a Fadal up here in Ontario for sale that Says it has a High speed look ahead Numatix control. Any feedback on them?


I would like to get a VMC one of these days for cutting aluminum patterns and coreboxes and to do the couple of jobs I do on my old exello mill. 99 percent of it will be 3d work which I will be programming using HSMWorks which I currently use to program my routers. I am currently doing any aluminum work on my one router but flood coolant and much more rigidity would be really helpful. I do want a machine that has enough processing power that I can run HSM toolpaths on somewhat complex geometry, and that has enough memory that I can run at least a couple hour program. Cycle time is not critical as a typical job is one off and several hours of cutting often with some tiny end mills in the final toolpaths. However most of our work is wood and tooling board so VMC will often be sitting idle so I cannot justify a really expensive machine. Is a Mid 90s Fadal the right machine for this?
 
I wouldn't touch anything that was made by MAG, those would be mid 2000's ish.. Those 4525FX machines,
and stuff like that... If it has a Fanuc control on it, I wouldn't touch it.


What is it about the Fanuc control or Mag that is a problem? There is a mid 2000s 45x25 up here for sale that has a fanuc controller. 45x25 is the perfect size for me. A lot of what I will be machining is matchplates that are 24x30" and I don't want to use all the space a 30x60 will burn up.
 
they didn't make many with fanuc controls for one thing
see if you can find parts support for one.

the fanuc control worked ok, but good luck getting support for it.

I wouldn't hesitate to get any machine (Fadal or otherwise) with a Fanuc control. There's zero issues with getting parts for Fanuc controls. Granted not cheap, but availibility not an issue.
 
What is it about the Fanuc control or Mag that is a problem? There is a mid 2000s 45x25 up here for sale that has a fanuc controller. 45x25 is the perfect size for me. A lot of what I will be machining is matchplates that are 24x30" and I don't want to use all the space a 30x60 will burn up.

Nothing against Fanuc (though I think they are a pain in the ass).. But the MAG thing.. Seems they
have absolutely fucked up everything they have ever touched. When G&L bought Fadal, they kept
making Fadals.. When MAG bought Fadal, they started making changes, lots of changes.

Look up the 104D control.. I bet you've never seen a machine with a 104D, and there is a reason.. They
had to take back ALL the machines that shipped with that POS, and then retrofit them with a Fanuc,
and maybe some Siemens.

Basically, in my opinion if you get your hands on some of those later model machines, you are
buying a bastard.. They didn't make a whole lot of them, and they weren't the same as old Fadal,
might as well just go buy a no name Taiwanese machine.. j

A fadal is NOT a great and wonderful machine (though I think the control is AWESOME).. What a
Fadal is.. And the advantage to having a Fadal is that they made a metric butt load of them, and
they were all basically the same from the late 80's into the early 2000's.. Parts and support are
EVERYWHERE!!!! And cheap... Take away the cheap, readily available parts, and free support from
many sources, and there is really no point in owning a Fadal.
 
Bobw,

Would normally defer to you on all things Fadal, but I believe the poor design/mismanagement era at Fadal was the responsibility of Thyssen Krup (from which MAG purchased Fadal in 2006). Giddings and Lewis purchased Fadal in 1995 but made no real changes to the line. Thyssen Krup purchased Giddings in 1997.

As you point out, the real disaster for Fadal was the 104D control - aside from being a poor design, it was in fact dangerous to operate. We know because we had one (2216L). About three months after we bought it new, Fadal sent us a very large box and shipped in one of their lead techs - over three days, he ripped out the 104D and replaced it with an 88HS control. Been running fine ever since.

Though I'm more than willing to be corrected, I don't think the basic iron ever changed that much (not a great fan of their implementation of linear ways in the L and A models). All seven of our current Fadals date from 2000-2010 with 88HS controls and perform as you have described in numerous posts - solid, unspectacular, inexpensive/easy to repair, etc.

Fred
 
Fred,

I'm not sure what year Fadal completely went to hell. I'm not even sure what year they stopped
making machines.. Just going off the top of my head.

The things I personally won't touch.. That whole FX series scares me... A Fanuc on a Fadal scares me.
I'm a little leary of the servo carousel, just because of how much it costs to fix, and I really don't
think I would ever buy a swing arm machine, there just aren't that many of them out there. I don't think
I've ever even seen one for sale.

Can I ask a few questions?

What were the actual issues with that 104D.. I remember a giant shit storm about them, but didn't
pay all that much attention...

And the "L" and "A" machines... I've never played with them, but how would you say they compare in
rigidity to a VMC15.. I know there is a lot of weight difference, and the whole casting vs weldment
thing.. And how do they compare to the box machines? I'm assuming they land somewhere in the middle.

Bobw,

Would normally defer to you on all things Fadal, but I believe the poor design/mismanagement era at Fadal was the responsibility of Thyssen Krup (from which MAG purchased Fadal in 2006). Giddings and Lewis purchased Fadal in 1995 but made no real changes to the line. Thyssen Krup purchased Giddings in 1997.

As you point out, the real disaster for Fadal was the 104D control - aside from being a poor design, it was in fact dangerous to operate. We know because we had one (2216L). About three months after we bought it new, Fadal sent us a very large box and shipped in one of their lead techs - over three days, he ripped out the 104D and replaced it with an 88HS control. Been running fine ever since.

Though I'm more than willing to be corrected, I don't think the basic iron ever changed that much (not a great fan of their implementation of linear ways in the L and A models). All seven of our current Fadals date from 2000-2010 with 88HS controls and perform as you have described in numerous posts - solid, unspectacular, inexpensive/easy to repair, etc.

Fred
 
Fred,

I'm not sure what year Fadal completely went to hell. I'm not even sure what year they stopped
making machines.. Just going off the top of my head.

The things I personally won't touch.. That whole FX series scares me... A Fanuc on a Fadal scares me.
I'm a little leary of the servo carousel, just because of how much it costs to fix, and I really don't
think I would ever buy a swing arm machine, there just aren't that many of them out there. I don't think
I've ever even seen one for sale.

Can I ask a few questions?

What were the actual issues with that 104D.. I remember a giant shit storm about them, but didn't
pay all that much attention...

And the "L" and "A" machines... I've never played with them, but how would you say they compare in
rigidity to a VMC15.. I know there is a lot of weight difference, and the whole casting vs weldment
thing.. And how do they compare to the box machines? I'm assuming they land somewhere in the middle.

Bobw,

All of the incidents we experienced with the 104D revolved around what I would call 'runaway'. Say, machine is profiling around a part, then suddenly would take a cut straight through center of part - totally random deviation from the programmed path. Where we really worried about this type of behavior was in Z axis moves. I don't know all the technical details, but the 104D was based on Windows OS which is not a real time operating system. Unlike the MP32 control which kept Windows on separate computer from the machine control, the 104D was subject to interruptions in tool path control, presumably because it used shared processing power. It also looked 'very cheaply' constructed.

Aside from the potential for machine to damage itself, work holding, and parts; we began to worry about simply opening the door to change parts, not quite sure what to expect moment to moment. Little bit like Dave wondering what HAL was going to do next :)

From our experience (which is also limited) the L machines are considerably less rigid than box way machines. Our 2216L is only used for very light machining in aluminum; taking heavier cuts like we do on 3016 box way sounds terrible with same cutting parameters. Also, near the ends of X travel, the table starts to 'droop', presumably from a lack of tight tolerance in the bearings. And this is a machine with very low hours. No doubt there are folks who are satisfied with their L and A machines, but I doubt they do a lot of 'hogging' with them.

We have two 3020 performance series and one 3016 FX from the 2009/2010 auction era when they cleaned house. By that time all machines had been retrofitted with 88HS controls; which was great for us since all our programs are - don't gag - in Format 1. Once again, solid performers that adhere to your description of Fadals in general.

Sorry, I don't have more comprehensive answers to your questions.

Fred
 








 
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