adaptive vs contour for nested parts from plate

sigmatero · Mar 13, 2020

Which do you think will have longer tool life- adaptive or contour? Using 1/4" 3-flute Lakeshore Carbide rougher in 7075. Both have similar run times. The adaptive removes a higher volume of material. The contour only uses the first 1/8" of bit.

I could fill in some of the empty areas for the adaptive but then I'm worried that the numerous small arcs of the widened slots will starve the ballscrews of oil and wear out the ballscrews.

BTW waterjet would of course be more ideal but I'm a bit short on time once the material arrives.

Thoughts?

Milland · Mar 13, 2020

My quick take - presuming this is a VMC with good coolant or mist for displacing chips, I'd go contour. But if the part allows, I'd have a deeper than 1/8" pass, with perhaps a lower FPT to keep chip to cutter gullet numbers reasonable.

Rational being that 7075 is a clean cutting, relatively low abrasion material, and shouldn't pose excess risk for breaking in the cut. And as a low-modulus material, the main benefit of an adaptive path (lower cutting force at the tool edge) isn't really needed.

Just be sure that coolant/mist chip removal is adequate and doesn't get masked by part features or clamping.

sigmatero · Mar 13, 2020

Thanks. Yes, 10hp CAT40 VMC with boxed ways so don't think stiffness is an issue

I was going off of Lakeshore's recommendation of 1/2 tool diameter but my gut says I can profile a bit steeper to get closer to 1D.

Good point about the coolant being masked- that's gotten me before. I have three different spray nozzles that spray hard so will aim them from different directions to hopefully help blast chips out of the slots.

http://www.lakeshorecarbide.com/pdf/VFA.pdf

gusmadison · Mar 13, 2020

Would you please elaborate on how this starves the ball screws and explain this please? I think I'm going to learn something new I was unaware of.

"but then I'm worried that the numerous small arcs of the widened slots will starve the ballscrews of oil and wear out the ballscrews."

Thanks!
Old Gus

sigmatero · Mar 13, 2020

Not sure if it's an old wives tail or not and for this part it's probably not a concern but I've been told that if you do numerous repetitive small motions in a single direction, like troichoidal narrow slots, it can wear out the ballscrew since one axis is basically just vibrating back and forth. Again, not sure how true this is but I suppose it makes sense. In my case I have lots of movement in every direction plus it's not a repetitive production part so it's probably not a big deal.

D Nelson · Mar 13, 2020

I’m saying the adaptive will win easily and save enough money on tooling to pay what ever needs replacing down the road especially in tougher materials
Don

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Delw · Mar 13, 2020

Milland said:
My quick take - presuming this is a VMC with good coolant or mist for displacing chips, I'd go contour. But if the part allows, I'd have a deeper than 1/8" pass, with perhaps a lower FPT to keep chip to cutter gullet numbers reasonable.

Rational being that 7075 is a clean cutting, relatively low abrasion material, and shouldn't pose excess risk for breaking in the cut. And as a low-modulus material, the main benefit of an adaptive path (lower cutting force at the tool edge) isn't really needed.

Just be sure that coolant/mist chip removal is adequate and doesn't get masked by part features or clamping.

agreed
We do these parts like this all the time on a vacuum plate, I run contour generally with a 3/16 endmill and finish with a 1/8 or 3/32 depending on features. very rarely break and endmill usually because its my stupid programming mistake. I leave about .002-.003 from the bottom and just snap them off, put in cut jaws and finish them.
Theres no sense in cutting away more stock then you need to.

G00 Proto · Mar 14, 2020

I'd turn it all to chips using a 3/8" cobalt rougher, full depth. Spin it as fast as you can, and run the feed at as high as you can. I have had far more problems with remnant popping up and breaking endmills, destroying way covers and binding my auger than I care to recall. Everything gets turned to chips in my shop (mostly). I also would optimize the spacing so the endmill never needs to plunge. I would rather have a few less parts per plate than deal with that.

2outof3 · Mar 15, 2020

What is the plan for the backside?

ripperj · Mar 15, 2020

2outof3 said:
What is the plan for the backside?

I’m curious too, tough to fixture that.

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Delw · Mar 15, 2020

G00 Proto said:
I'd turn it all to chips using a 3/8" cobalt rougher, full depth. Spin it as fast as you can, and run the feed at as high as you can. I have had far more problems with remnant popping up and breaking endmills, destroying way covers and binding my auger than I care to recall. Everything gets turned to chips in my shop (mostly). I also would optimize the spacing so the endmill never needs to plunge. I would rather have a few less parts per plate than deal with that.

I understand where your coming from , I used to do and think that way also. But using a vacuum plate you dont have that problem.

G00 Proto · Mar 15, 2020

Delw said:
I understand where your coming from , I used to do and think that way also. But using a vacuum plate you dont have that problem.

Agreed, vacuum plates are pretty freaking cool. I would certainly invest in one if I had lots of plate work to do... I still would have a deep seated dislike of traditional contour toolpaths and the associated issues, but I would need to come up with a better excuse not to use them

In many cases, I think I could equal or even slightly improve upon my times using traditional contours, especially on parts like this. I just don't like the un-even tool wear from taking Z steps; the non-uniform tool load as they go into corners and bark; the need to plunge (or ramp) an endmill; the propensity to load up an endmill if the coolant sputters; and as stated earlier, dealing with the loose chunks of remnant that seem to float around the machine enclosure.

Probably most of all, I just like watching them run. Adaptive toolpaths just look and sound cool. At the end of the day, I'm just a hobbiest that does this because I like it... luckily, my hobby pays the bills

Delw · Mar 15, 2020

G00 Proto said:
Agreed, vacuum plates are pretty freaking cool. I would certainly invest in one if I had lots of plate work to do... I still would have a deep seated dislike of traditional contour toolpaths and the associated issues, but I would need to come up with a better excuse not to use them

In many cases, I think I could equal or even slightly improve upon my times using traditional contours, especially on parts like this. I just don't like the un-even tool wear from taking Z steps; the non-uniform tool load as they go into corners and bark; the need to plunge (or ramp) an endmill; the propensity to load up an endmill if the coolant sputters; and as stated earlier, dealing with the loose chunks of remnant that seem to float around the machine enclosure.

Probably most of all, I just like watching them run. Adaptive toolpaths just look and sound cool. At the end of the day, I'm just a hobbiest that does this because I like it... luckily, my hobby pays the bills

I do very little ramping and very little plunging if any. I drill a bigger hole where my tool starts. plunging breaks tools.

I hear you on liking to watch them run when cutting chips, chips hitting the windows and the noise is cool LOL. thats funny on the hobbiest thing I'm in the same boat I love coming into work and making shit. would much rather do that then hit a bar or go home and sit on the couch and look at each other all day. Luckly I got a cool wife she dont want to look at me all day either. so she just works on weekdays at shop and leaves me to have my own time on weekends at the shop.
here today nice and quiet getting lots done

Mtndew · Mar 16, 2020

It all depends on your machine. Is it capable of high ACCURATE feedrates? If not, then contour.

sigmatero · Mar 27, 2020

Just an update because it's the right thing to do... tried both methods and I like adaptive better for many of the reasons you folks stated already. Thanks

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