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Adding a probe to an older mill

thunderskunk

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Location
Middle-of-nowhere
Hey folks,

I just got a quote to add probes to some 2002 VF3 mills at work. $23,000... per mill, not the lot of them.

Am I crazy in thinking that's crazy? I thought Haas mills were all close to "universal" which made making upgrades easier than other brands? I won't get into what I'd do if they were my mills because they're not, but bluntly I can't even bark at the idea with that price tag. Management would laugh.

What I do own is a 2004 robodrill which I am planning on adding a probe to. I'm hoping the software is already in the control, but I haven't even gotten to power it on just yet, so we'll see. Haven't gotten a quote back on it either.
 
was the quote from an HFO?
I know if you get too far back in OS version the price goes way up. Because they have to dink around to bring it up to speed.
If it is new enough the price is like sub 6k, which is a literal steal. Haas is giving it away.
The Robo will be GTG. The software is just macro programs.
I have recently put part probing and tool length setting on an old vertical and two newer horizontals for ~3800 each. Using some new some ebay items.
 
thunderskunk,
This thread might be of use to you:
Adding Renishaw Spindle And Tool Probing - An Endorsement
PM

Exactly what the doctor ordered. Very good walk through, and I eventually landed on Probe's post where he links SNR Basic for folks. Very excited to give it a shot.

was the quote from an HFO?
I know if you get too far back in OS version the price goes way up. Because they have to dink around to bring it up to speed.
If it is new enough the price is like sub 6k, which is a literal steal. Haas is giving it away.
The Robo will be GTG. The software is just macro programs.
I have recently put part probing and tool length setting on an old vertical and two newer horizontals for ~3800 each. Using some new some ebay items.

Yes, the quote was from an HFO. You're totally right with the 6k tag. It's all the control upgrades that cost an enormous amount.
 
It sounds like they're going to retrofit the entire controller to something more modern. That will certainly do it, but that's a huge undertaking for just using probes.

A few years ago I got a quote from our HFO to add probing to our two old VF's (1999 and 1997) which involved a Marposs wireless system that ran about $10k for each machine. It would use the existing Motorolla controller, using Marposs's interface hardware wired into the machine's existing "skip" input. On the newer machines it's indeed a plug-and-play for $6k but that's a specific price for Renishaw WIPS that plugs directly into the Coldfire or NGC boards.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I *thought* the Marposs solution was the standard operating procedure for older machines, since the WIPS can't be retrofitted onto the Motorolla machines, and nobody would be crazy enough to upgrade the machine just for that alone. It's still expensive but nowhere near THAT expensive. Of course maybe my information is outdated and Marposs doesn't offer it anymore (?) hmmm

FWIW, I should mention that we never went through with the probing upgrade on my two older mills. Ironically one of them was updated to a Coldfire-I for other reasons, but it was done back when the retrofit was $7.5k instead of the current price of $15k which still doesn't include the probing system.
 
It really does not matter Marposs or any other probing system. From control point of view probe is a switch and if it has ability to recognize it as skip signal and treat it with macro, it is going to work.
 
Very true, however remember that the probe is more than just a digital trigger. The wireless interface has to be connected to the controller, which is the reason the HFO's use Marposs with the older Motorolla Haas processors. Renishaw's system sends up to 5 inputs to the controller which wasn't directly supported by the older stuff. Now it may be possible to bypass some of that (error inputs etc) but I can't speak to that myself.
 
Very true, however remember that the probe is more than just a digital trigger. The wireless interface has to be connected to the controller, which is the reason the HFO's use Marposs with the older Motorolla Haas processors. Renishaw's system sends up to 5 inputs to the controller which wasn't directly supported by the older stuff. Now it may be possible to bypass some of that (error inputs etc) but I can't speak to that myself.

YdnaD

off the subject but always followed your posts on the other cnc site way way back when.
did you ever perfect that macro you made up to probe a part and get dims off of it. I think its was 2008 or 9 when you started working on that marco.
if I recall you were using small circles on the probe to find the dims. on the part.
anyway glad your still around.
Delw
 
Very true, however remember that the probe is more than just a digital trigger. The wireless interface has to be connected to the controller, which is the reason the HFO's use Marposs with the older Motorolla Haas processors. Renishaw's system sends up to 5 inputs to the controller which wasn't directly supported by the older stuff. Now it may be possible to bypass some of that (error inputs etc) but I can't speak to that myself.
Unfortunately not true. The wireless is responsible for transmission of the trigger from the probe body to the receiver(OMM in Renishaw case). This way the switch in the probe is transformed into switch in the interface. This operation has nothing to do with the CNC control. The only input significant to probing activity is SKIP. All others (ERROR, BAT LOW etc.) may be used, but are not necessary for probing. Their actions can be easy emulated in macro programs.
 
Unfortunately not true. The wireless is responsible for transmission of the trigger from the probe body to the receiver(OMM in Renishaw case). This way the switch in the probe is transformed into switch in the interface. This operation has nothing to do with the CNC control. The only input significant to probing activity is SKIP. All others (ERROR, BAT LOW etc.) may be used, but are not necessary for probing. Their actions can be easy emulated in macro programs.

Yes you're correct, but again my friend there's more to it. Some of those machines don't allow macros, and some of them require the skip input to be on a motion command. To perform checks that the probe is actually active as commanded by the OMI, you have to tell the machine to move somewhere while looking for that pulsed input. The problem then becomes making a universal solution that allows movement while also giving the probe time to switch on, while guaranteeing that nothing will be bumped in the process (tool or work). YES IT CAN BE DONE but the program becomes a jumbled mess with superfluous go-nowhere movements that deviate substantially from the original subroutines.

You might say hey that's easy! But it's not my choice, you gotta tell it to the HFOs that refuse to install that type of program. I'm just the messenger. And yeah people have indeed done that type of modification, I've seen it before....but they did it on their own with no help from the HFO.

YdnaD off the subject but always followed your posts on the other cnc site way way back when.
did you ever perfect that macro you made up to probe a part and get dims off of it. I think its was 2008 or 9 when you started working on that marco.
if I recall you were using small circles on the probe to find the dims. on the part.
Yes! Well somewhat...my program performed a row of measurements at some interval, then dumped the coordinates out via RS232. The information was pretty basic though, essentially the macro just generates a point cloud which needs to be adjusted in CAD to compensate for the probe radius and other inaccuracies. But I never posted the program because it was kinda risky to run on other people's machines, but if you want a crack at it then drop me a message :)
 
Hey guys, I have a follow up.

I’m speaking strictly Haas here: we have five 2002 VF3 mills at work that I’m hoping to add said probing to. We already own the correct tool setters and wiring interfaces which are not WIPS or whatever the new Renishaw system is. Not really sure why they were purchased and not hooked up.

I know block skip works because I’ve used it in a few different programs. What I’m not sure is if we have G31 enabled. I haven’t dug into the manual yet, but I’m hoping it’s a simple answer. Is there a way to tell if a mill is G31 capable? Is it just a parameter you need to change from 0 to 1?
 
Hey guys, I have a follow up.

I’m speaking strictly Haas here: we have five 2002 VF3 mills at work that I’m hoping to add said probing to. We already own the correct tool setters and wiring interfaces which are not WIPS or whatever the new Renishaw system is. Not really sure why they were purchased and not hooked up.

I know block skip works because I’ve used it in a few different programs. What I’m not sure is if we have G31 enabled. I haven’t dug into the manual yet, but I’m hoping it’s a simple answer. Is there a way to tell if a mill is G31 capable? Is it just a parameter you need to change from 0 to 1?

you can call hass and give them your serial number and they will tell you what you have and or need.
Ive I recall those older hass's need a board as well as the software uploaded, not just prm changes and macros installed. I maybe wrong however.
 
I'm switching back to the Robodrill for a bit.

I have a shopping list:
• OMP40-2 Probe A-4071-2001 1
• OMM-2 A-5492-0051 1
• OSI Interface A-5492-2000 1
• OMM Mounting Bracket A-2033-0830 1
• BT30 shank for OMP40-2 M-4071-0049
• OTS tool setter

So far, I'm looking at getting the OMP40-2 right from metrologyparts.com. It's pricey, but I haven't really seen any good used probes on the market. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.

I've seen some decent deals on the OMM and OTS on ebay; not great, but if the cheap .001 accurate tool setter goes for $300 and I can get an OTS for $600, I just assume fork out the funds for a system I'm already into.

Then my big question is; Do I really need the Renishaw specific tool holder? I found a diagram of an OMP40-2 at one point, but it looks like it's just a shank... I'm already forking out 3k or so for the hardware, which is a bargain compared to the 8k from renishaw directly. $400 for a tool holder that doesn't hold tools seems harsh...

Let me know what ya think.
 
Then my big question is; Do I really need the Renishaw specific tool holder? I found a diagram of an OMP40-2 at one point, but it looks like it's just a shank... I'm already forking out 3k or so for the hardware, which is a bargain compared to the 8k from renishaw directly. $400 for a tool holder that doesn't hold tools seems harsh...

Let me know what ya think.

You don't have to use Renishaw's holder. Years ago, in order to avoid ridiculous prices of probe holders, I designed adaptors, which in majority cases customers made for themselves. Attached are pictures of OMP40 adaptor. This one is with 20 mm dia shank to fit any available holder of this size.
By the way, check using OMI-2T instead of OMM-2/OSI.
 

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Hey gents,

I’m back on this subject; now troubleshooting. I have a now running D21iDL robodrill with 16iMB control.

I got a TS27R wired tool setter from a very generous source who wasn’t using it, so that’s what I’m starting with. The operators manual says to hook the positive end to XT5-10 and the negative end to XT5-12... but there is no XT5-12, it stops at 10 I think, or maybe I’m looking at the wrong bus?

A fella at Methods said to hook it up the same way I’d hook up a wireless spindle probe (diagram attached), but that makes even less sense.
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Anyone have a TS27R on their robodrill that could take a peak in their cabinet? My wiring diagram doesn’t even list a tool setter bus.
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Finally got the right Methods guy on the phone today; knew exactly what I needed. I like to follow up with my posts;

Pay no attention to the chapter on tool offset measurement. That second page listed for spindle probe wiring lists X4 bit 7 as the skip signal, pin XT4-12. That's the one. He was hinting that you could use any signal wire for the negative, but that went onto XT4-10, and the positive on XT4-12. Check the PMC DGN for a signal on XT4, and bit 7 should change when you toggle the switch.

Ironically, I just manually picked up tools to make some hardware to bolt the tool probe to the table. Hopefully for the last time.
 








 
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