Additive manufactured tool bodies: anyone try them?

ChipSplitter · Jun 24, 2020

Sandvik is advertising their new Coromill 390 that is made with AM and supposedly reduces vibration in long reach applications.

So I got a price on one just to satisfy my curiosity.

Wait for it.....$1200 for a 2" face mill...!! :eek:

Are they really that much better than the old milled steel bodies?

My BS detector is going berserk.... :toetap:

Oldwrench · Jun 24, 2020

Maybe it has an internal redistribution of mass that relieves chatter...like drilling holes and partially filling with lead shot. Only neater.

Mtndew · Jun 24, 2020

ChipSplitter said:
Sandvik is advertising their new Coromill 390 that is made with AM and supposedly reduces vibration in long reach applications.

So I got a price on one just to satisfy my curiosity.

Wait for it.....$1200 for a 2" face mill...!!

Are they really that much better than the old milled steel bodies?

My BS detector is going berserk....

Yeah they list at $1,604
I'm also curious. But they're probably geared more towards cutting aluminum and other materials where you can kick up the rpm's.

J Gilles · Jun 24, 2020

I haven't used one, but talked to the rep about it at the last tool show I was at. Sounded like it could be useful if you were pushing the limits in some long reach applications. It was definitely WAY lighter than the standard body.

Mtndew · Jun 24, 2020

J Gilles said:
I haven't used one, but talked to the rep about it at the last tool show I was at. Sounded like it could be useful if you were pushing the limits in some long reach applications. It was definitely WAY lighter than the standard body.

According to their website, a 2" 4 flute weighs .154lb, where a regular 2" 5 flute weighs .613lbs.

ChipSplitter · Jun 24, 2020

Mtndew said:
According to their website, a 2" 4 flute weighs .154lb, where a regular 2" 5 flute weighs .613lbs.

I'm like, so what...!?!?

Is that even relevant, Sandvik? :rolleyes5:

dandrummerman21 · Jun 24, 2020

ChipSplitter said:
I'm like, so what...!?!?

Is that even relevant, Sandvik?

I don't know if any of my machines would care if they were turning a Mcdonalds quarter pounder with cheese, instead of a Wendy's triple. I'd rather the heavier tool (and the heavier burger; sorry, I skipped lunch and could use a burger)

Now, if you could reduce the 40LB CAT50 toolholder I had to manually load into the spindle earlier by 20lbs, maybe I would be on board.

CarbideBob · Jun 24, 2020

On long stick out heavier is better?
Maybe note how your guitar sings. Same length and one side heavy, one side light.
Correctly chosen for an application and yes it makes a very big difference so the high price may be well spent.
Sometimes you want the mass, other times you do not.
Bob

rcoope · Jun 24, 2020

How much is the regular 390? I'd be inclined to believe that it's real but perhaps in a narrow application range. We're a prototype shop so don't push production, but every time we get super fancy tooling, we, engineers and tool makers alike, stand around not believing how well they work.

ChipSplitter · Jun 25, 2020

CarbideBob said:
On long stick out heavier is better?
Maybe note how your guitar sings. Same length and one side heavy, one side light.
Correctly chosen for an application and yes it makes a very big difference so the high price may be well spent.
Sometimes you want the mass, other times you do not.
Bob

But they advertise the tool in a video on a super long facemill arbor. I just checked Iscar* and a 3.5" C6 extension weighs 4 pounds.

Put 3 of those together plus the machine taper interface and you have roughly 20 pounds of steel there without the tool (tool weighs about 3-4 oz. according to MtnDew). Wouldn't it make more sense to print the toolholders??

Must be Swedish math is Common Core?? :nutter:

*Sandvik's website is so convoluted, obtuse, and retarded that I had to go to Iscar to even find it.

gregormarwick · Jun 25, 2020

If you've ever used sandvik's silent tools then you know that they are worth their weight in gold. If not, then I am certain you will think they are a waste of money.

One of the fundamental principles of their function that sandvik has espoused for many years is having as little mass as possible at the cutting end of the tool.

This is an extension of that, designed to be used on one of their damped arbours. It almost certainly would provide no benefit mounted on a standard gauge length arbour.

Their damped milling arbours already work extremely well, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that this will also provide tangible improvement when used as intended.

DanielG · Jun 25, 2020

w=sqrt(k/m)

dropping mass at the tip can make a big difference

Mtndew · Jun 25, 2020

rcoope said:
How much is the regular 390? I'd be inclined to believe that it's real but perhaps in a narrow application range. We're a prototype shop so don't push production, but every time we get super fancy tooling, we, engineers and tool makers alike, stand around not believing how well they work.

a 2" R390 lists around $500-$600

Mtndew · Jun 25, 2020

ChipSplitter said:
I'm like, so what...!?!?

Is that even relevant, Sandvik?

I don't think they would invest all that time and money if it didn't provide an advantage, they're pretty reputable.
Now if you want to talk about their prices talk about how expensive their end mills are lol. Same as Kennametal. Who buys a 1/2" 4 flute .03r variable helix end mill for $250 when you can get them anywhere for less than $50.

Mike1974 · Jun 25, 2020

gregormarwick said:
If you've ever used sandvik's silent tools then you know that they are worth their weight in gold. If not, then I am certain you will think they are a waste of money.

One of the fundamental principles of their function that sandvik has espoused for many years is having as little mass as possible at the cutting end of the tool.

This is an extension of that, designed to be used on one of their damped arbours. It almost certainly would provide no benefit mounted on a standard gauge length arbour.

Their damped milling arbours already work extremely well, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that this will also provide tangible improvement when used as intended.

Is it a different principle for turning vs milling? If so I am ready to learn something new.

Seems like in 2 axis lathe work, you get 'damped' bars that have tungsten cores and such, making them heavier than steel alone.... At one job we made custome woodworking cutters, some brazed carbide, some brazed pcd, som inserted, and then some out of solid tungsten with brazed pcd. (Yes I know it's wood, big difference :crazy:

). Seems that was new and upcoming 10 years ago (tungsten tool bodies)....

ChipSplitter · Jun 25, 2020

Mtndew said:
I don't think they would invest all that time and money if it didn't provide an advantage, they're pretty reputable.

Yes, I know what you mean. But sometimes it seems the benefits are trumped by the marketing......

Now if you want to talk about their prices talk about how expensive their end mills are lol. Same as Kennametal. Who buys a 1/2" 4 flute .03r variable helix end mill for $250 when you can get them anywhere for less than $50.

We get some Iscar EMs for $85. They kick butt although I wouldn't pay $120 for them, let alone $250. :willy_nilly:

I think some of those companies simply don't care if it's not in their targeted market sector.

DanielG · Jun 25, 2020

Mike1974 said:
Seems like in 2 axis lathe work, you get 'damped' bars that have tungsten cores and such, making them heavier than steel alone.... At one job we made custome woodworking cutters, some brazed carbide, some brazed pcd, som inserted, and then some out of solid tungsten with brazed pcd. (Yes I know it's wood, big difference ). Seems that was new and upcoming 10 years ago (tungsten tool bodies)....

The added weight of a tungsten carbide is a side effect. The advantage comes from the greatly increased Young's Modulus. Tungsten carbide is about twice the density as steel, but the Young's Modulus is three times higher. This means that the natural frequency of a tungsten rod will be about 22% higher than a steel rod of the same size.

On an end mill, however, you don't just have a bar, you have a bar with a hunk of steel (the end mill body) on the end of it. The end mill body is sitting at the end of the stack, so it has little effect on the stiffness, but its mass has a large effect on the natural frequency.

Mike1974 · Jun 25, 2020

ChipSplitter said:
Yes, I know what you mean. But sometimes it seems the benefits are trumped by the marketing......

We get some Iscar EMs for $85. They kick butt although I wouldn't pay $120 for them, let alone $250.

I think some of those companies simply don't care if it's not in t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶t̶a̶r̶g̶e̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶m̶a̶r̶k̶e̶t̶ ̶s̶e̶c̶t̶o̶r̶. if it's not well paying enough.

It's amazing the lengths some will go thru for the allure of big monies. We had reps fly in from Germany to Indonesia for Emuge taps (65-70mil project or so..). Sandvik rep used to come into our place (in FL) once or twice a week to look up tools and inserts for us and do quoting. MSC rep practically drooled when we said we were interested in their vending machine... and on and on. :soapbox:

macds · Jun 25, 2020

For milling tools, I can see less weight at the tip helping (less mass that needs to be stabilized through an interrupted cut) * NOTE The tool is rotating in a milling application.

Use to do some insane long reach ID grinding on small IDs with tight Ra and tolerance requirements.
I made some 10" long 3/4" quills out of "heavy metal" (Mallory something?), and that was the ticket! But in grinding, you SHOULDNT have an interrupted cut like a milling cutter with a peripheral application.

I would think an AM boring would be superior as well, from a rigidity standpoint.

rcoope · Jun 26, 2020

Mtndew said:
a 2" R390 lists around $500-$600

Thanks Mtndew you saved me looking up the quote in my own records. As I later hazily remembered, we indeed bought a regular 2" 390 on a capto C4 mount with a 6" extension bar a few months ago. I asked our tool maker about it today and his response was "yes it is a 390 and it &#*!ing rocks." So yes Sandvik's website is a symphony of northern European obtuseness, but their stuff really does work.

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