Advantage of Higher Spindle Speeds?

I am just adding milling capability to my home shop. I will not be doing production work. I have a HAAS VF2 on order. I am wondering if it is worth the money to step up to the VF2 SS. The cost increase is the same as adding a 30 tool capability and a higher speed spindle to the VF2 I have on order.

I understand the advantage of the 20 vs 30 tool carousel. My question is are the additional RPMS provided by going from a VF2 to the SS model needed? The change in machines takes the spindle speed from 8K to 12K.

I am trying to avoid spending this amount of money and then wishing I had purchased the additional capabilities later.

When would I use or need the extra 4K of spindle speed and is it worth making sure I have that level of performance?

Thanks for the help on this.

If you're doing mostly aluminum, get the 12K spindle. But if you're planing on more steel or similar, the utility of the side-mount 30 tool setup is greater.

What materials are you milling? If aluminum, you'll use the extra 4K on every single part and will see probably 50% faster cycle times vs. the non-SS 8K model, between the spindle, faster tool changes, and faster rapids on the SS model.

If you're not doing production I don't think the extra for the SS is worth it.
The side mount tool changer is nice though.

If you're only doing 1 of something, are extra RPMs, faster tool changes etc. really necessary?

If you will be using small diameter tools in aluminum, the smaller the tool, the faster you will want to spin it, generally speaking.

Aluminum has been mentioned so I won't restate it.


The other aspect is what size tooling are you planning to use? Part size? Do you see yourself doing lots of fine detail work? Engraving?

I was doing a 304SS and one would say you do not need high speed for that..right? Well run the speed and feed for using .06 endmills to profile down .125 on 130 letters on a 28 x 12" plaque. Job went from a favor to make it with a dozen or so larger letters to writing a book, 303 SS became 304SS and I figured that one out on my own after starting the roughing with a 3/8" em.

The intricate details for a couple letters was in the several hours only stopping to inspect, change tooling and load next set of letters to me machined.

If you have parts with lots of fine engraving...check the speed and feed on using a .01 engraving tip. 4k more spindle speed can save you lots of time.

Down side is if your more set towards roughing...I'd opt for more spindle torque and finer pitch ballscrews.

It all depends on your work.

The first time you 3D surface something with a ball or bullnose, you will wish you had more RPM, regardless of what you currently have.

Regards.

Mike

When I was learning about engraving I was under the impression you needed high rpms's to do it. It was explained to me like this...

Lets use this as a baseline.

6k rpm engraving and it takes 60 min to finish.
12k rpm will take 30 min to finish.
15k rpm would be about 24 min to finish.

30k spindles would be 5x faster than a 6k spindle for engraving purposes. Now imagine if you had a lot of production to do.

It is all in what you are cutting. Get the setup that fits your materials.

HAAS recently put up some videos showing the HP/Torque charts and where to keep spindle speeds at for the most power. Take a look, they have lots of info on all the spindles on their website. I think they have the HP/Torque charts for all spindles.

If you forsee running jobs with more that 20 tools, get the upgraded tool rack. Realistically, I do not see a garage shop even needing 20 tools in the machine.

I have a 2015 VF-3SS here with 15KRPM. I cut mostly stainless and Titanium medical device parts, and spend a lot of time RPM limited. It's all about the size of cutter you're using. Dynamic milling in Grade 5 Ti, a .020" endmill want to turn at 26752 RPM.

As mentioned in the previous posts... more rpm = bettr IMO. My thought is you can make up HP with dynamic milling so I think that is a wash (unless you are drilling large holes, etc). And just becasue you don't have 1 single job that needs 20 tools, those extra 10 can halp make/break a job by having them always loaded and not having to switch. That killed us in the past, those few oddball jobs that needed a 0-80 tap & tap drill with no where to put them... unload t3-4-5 whatever, load up new tools, touch off, verify depths. etc etc. For god's sake don't skimp on the probe, it's a $6k option, new, much more for field install. Touching tools, work offsets, tool break checks.... well spent money IMO!

Shoot i'd always go with the highest spindle RPM you can afford. With features like spindle speed and thru spindle coolant limited to factory upgrades, you definitely don't want to be wishing you had TSC or higher spindle speed when youre trying to run small tooling in ANY material, not just aluminum. 1/16" end mill in 303SS with dynamic milling can max out my 10K spindle easily.

As someone else mentioned for 3D surfacing work. If you have a complex surfacing op that takes 2 hours to finish on 8k, you can reasonably reduce that by 30% with a 12K spindle.

Thru spindle coolant is more of a take it or leave it thing, some people don't truly need it, but others can't live without it. You can't really take advantage of insert drills and quad-drills unless you have TSC.

Since it doesn't sound like your pressed for $$$ id jump at the spindle upgrade.

Also, I have a 20 tool carousel. I wish I had 50 because right out the gate, I have 12 or more tools that live inside each machine. They come out for tool swap only. Parts I run can easily use 8 drills plus reamers plus taps. Manual tool changes suck!

I used to use the 1000 PSI TSC sparingly, only on deep holes. Now I use it any time I can, it improves cutter life significantly by getting all the chips out of the cutting area. You don't need special TSC tools to use it, just use a collet holder with a non-sealed collet. That said the TSC shrink fit holders are my favorite, especially for heavy cuts.

It is definitely worth it. Even if you don’t do aluminum/plastic, if you do any 3D work it can make a huge difference. Never mind the faster rapids and tool changes. The SS models should be Haas’s standard offering, anything else is just behind the curve. I would also recommend TSC. Technology keeps you competitive.

danmcph said:

I am just adding milling capability to my home shop. I will not be doing production work. I have a HAAS VF2 on order. I am wondering if it is worth the money to step up to the VF2 SS. The cost increase is the same as adding a 30 tool capability and a higher speed spindle to the VF2 I have on order.

I understand the advantage of the 20 vs 30 tool carousel. My question is are the additional RPMS provided by going from a VF2 to the SS model needed? The change in machines takes the spindle speed from 8K to 12K.

I am trying to avoid spending this amount of money and then wishing I had purchased the additional capabilities later.

When would I use or need the extra 4K of spindle speed and is it worth making sure I have that level of performance?

Thanks for the help on this.

Click to expand...

I used to work for a major MTB and we had several different spindle options on our VMCs. Much of this depends on what and how you will be cutting. Remember that what is a normal spindle today was a high speed spindle 10 or 15 years ago.

IMO an 8k spindle is usually more than adequate for general machining. One area that people forget is that the higher speed spindles usually don't have the low end torque the standard spindles do. So if you do a lot of tapping in steels, or use indexable drills, you might actually want to stay with the 8k spindle.

DouglasJRizzo said:

One area that people forget is that the higher speed spindles usually don't have the low end torque the standard spindles do. So if you do a lot of tapping in steels, or use indexable drills, you might actually want to stay with the 8k spindle.

Click to expand...

While true, I think you'd need to be running some pretty big indexables for that to tip the equation. The 15K spindle on the 2015 VF-3SS will happily drive a 3/4" indexable drill 4" deep in 17-4 H900. I've also made it drive a 5" indexable face mill across the same material, albeit only .050 deep.

Look at torque as well. The 8k spindle will do everything the 12k will, just slightly slower on small tools.

Sometimes the higher rpm spindles simply cant run big drills, or large taps at all. And eventually you will get a job where you wish you had more torque.

mmurray70 said:

Look at torque as well. The 8k spindle will do everything the 12k will, just slightly slower on small tools.

Sometimes the higher rpm spindles simply cant run big drills, or large taps at all. And eventually you will get a job where you wish you had more RPM.

Click to expand...

With the exception of large drills and taps (which you can make up for with interpolating and thread milling), you just can't make the spindle turn faster than it's max RPM. We use 1/16" and under tools all the time, so the extra 2-3k really help speed things up. Now, if you never use those small tools, ok, maybe stick with a "regular" 8-10k rpm spindle. We are doing a job now with a .012" drill, going .500 deep. If we had 20k spindles, we would almost cut our cycle time in half with just that one tool.

All depends on "YOUR WORK."


I have 4 machines with gearboxs that I use IF I need to run a larger tap or a Spade Drill OR larger face mills.

I have a VF with standard direct drive with a top RPM of 8100. I try to run the higher rpm Aluminum jobs there, although it runs just about the same stuff the gearbox machines will but pegging the load meter for some things like Spade drills.

I kinda wish my MiniMill had a higher rpm...that machine was bought to run smaller jobs, smaller tools and the spindle limits out at 6k. I should have checked before buying, I assumed direct drive was going to be the same as the new VF machines at 8100. Machine still serves its purpose but runs a bit longer on cycles, but the SS Mini price hike did not fit the budge then. Maybe the next one.

My oldest VF is a 91 that limits out at 5k. Between 5k and not much memory I avoid engraving jobs in there...I can get them to work and work well...just needs to be done in stages and it takes lots of time. Luckily I did not keep the machine for that kind of work. It still does what I kept it for very well...lots of 2ndaries. Push the button come back and reload when you pass by. End of the day lots and lots of great parts made.

FYI- I had a used SS MINI with Side rack changer, high spindle speeds and in pretty good shape for a little less coin then the NEW Mini Mill I bought. It took awhile for me to think that purchase through. I saw the SS Mini RUN and it was Scary Impressive...then I started to think...this machine is gonna run simple jobs off in the corner. Do I need a balls to the wall machine for that. Nope...just something reliable that fits the work.

SO00ooo buy the machine that fits YOUR NEEDS.

SS has faster G code reading and processing. mostly used for mold making and 3D contour profiles.