Advice needed for a 3 axis CNC machine in my Shop (for prototyping) I'm a Novice.

I have a Shop being set up for the production of Fire arms accessories and assembling of completed Fire Arms. I'm very good at Hand machining, and have been machining since High School. I have operated CNC machines before and I am generally knowledgeable of how they work and what they are capable of.

However, I have never had to set one up and become self proficient with one.

I don't need the machine to be a full time Production Machine, but more of a Prototyping Machine that I may make 1, 2, or a dozen of the same parts on. depending on my Needs. So repeatability is something I needed to consider, but the overall efficiency in part turn around time is not the biggest factor.

Since I am on a limited budget. I have been interested in the CNC Masters Baron Milling Machine. It is capable of producing the parts I have in mind.
I have been reading all I can, and I should be purchasing such a Machine within the next 2 weeks since I finally have insurance on my Shop and can begin to move my equipment in.

I wanted to know a good source of information on 3-Axis CNC machining that would pertain to the Baron Mill or a similar mill.
Again, It will only be used for Prototyping parts that I will be contracting out to a machine shop for production, and for the making of custom tooling and Jigs for my in house machining and assembly of other items.

Any recommendations on reading material (Books, sites, threads) would be greatly appreciated.
I also need to post in the CAD/CAM Section and see where I should get started in that department. I am considering the Rhino CAD/CAM and/or Visual mill like CNC Masters recommends, but I simply do not know enough about it to understand if it is going to be something I absolutely need to produce my parts I have drawn out.

Thank you all in Advance.

look for a used Hurco, has a great conversational control and takes NC code also.

As for CAM, I would look at some sort of solid modeler alog with the CAM side, sounds like you need to design then cut your designs.

look at SpaceClaim.com and I believe they use the visualmill also.

I've prototyped for 25 yrs and the Hurco is one of the better machines because of the control.

The machine you mentioned is a cnc-d version of a chinese table top "mill", and will probably do an acceptable job machining wax, or butter.
For the $7k they want, a small VMC will be vastly more capable, and actually be able to machine steel in a reasonable period of time.
Unless you really can't find space for a VMC you will be far ahead in getting a VMC over a table top machine.

For making 2-d or 2.5d prototypes, second the Hurco control. Even the ancient ones are easy to use. They can still do G-code from your cam program, too - though the feature set is limited somewhat. IMO, the limited g-code features is not a real issue with cam programming but makes hand-coding more difficult.

Replies are accurate if you are making the action assemblies (cutting metal).

If you are wanting to machine the receiver placement in the stock, I would look a small gantry router.

I used to make gun stocks. We found a gantry to be cheaper, more efficient, and easy to program.

Using "traditional" 2d drawings and notepad, I can program cutting for the receiver and barrel in a couple minutes.

Use the search function on these forums with the words "prototypes" and "prototyping" and you'll hit some discussions that will help.

Search "CNC Masters" here and you will also see some discussions on their machines.

I'd also take a look at the machines from Home | Tormach | We provide personal small CNC machines, CNC tooling, and many more CNC items . Their users have been pretty happy with their machines, and the company has been aggressively developing new accessories (ie 4th axis, vacuum table, etc.) for the machines.

An advantage of the Tormach's compared to the machine you are looking at is that they use components (PC interface electronics, motor drives, controller software) available from several 3rd parties, so even if the company gets in trouble you'll be able to keep your machine running.

Good luck-

Paul T.
Power Technology

got an old prototrak I'd be happy to sell. Has been taking up space for too long now.

I appreciate the replies guys. All good info.

The first thing I am prototyping is more along the Lines of a magwell adapter, and is relatively simple in design.

I need to read up on the recommendations of other machines mentioned.

I'm not sure why one of you has made the statement that the CNC masters mill won't hardly cut steel. I know someone who has been running one Full time for a few years cutting steel and he has had great things to say about it. But, again that's not to say you guys don't have a valid point. This is why I am here, I am trying to learn all I can and make the best decisions on the equipment I am buying and how I will use it.

Down the road I will be trying to bring a Milled receiver I have drawn out to life with the Machine. I don't need this machine to do these things on a production scale. I just want to be able to prototype in house, and also be able to machine Jigs/tooling for builds when I buy Surplus Parts kits to build,re-finish,and sell with repeatable quality control of the assembly process.

I've got alot of Ideas, I am simply trying to bring them to life.

I pick things up very easily, I am pretty computer Savvy (I build my own), I've always been good at hand machining, reading blue prints and Schematics and diagrams. I have machined Fire Arms by hand before (went to school for it) I'm good with electronics and very mechanically inclined.

I just want a machine I will be able to use with ease.

I will read up on the information you all have provided thus far.

Thank you all so much.
More input is greatly Appreciated, especially since My FFL 07 Manufacturers license is being processed, and I am trying to get things moving as fast as possible since I know the prototyping will be the longest/hardest part of this.
Assembling the completed product will not be a challenge, but becoming skilled with a CNC machine will be. It's just something I am relatively new to.

PaulT said:

Use the search function on these forums with the words "prototypes" and "prototyping" and you'll hit some discussions that will help.

Search "CNC Masters" here and you will also see some discussions on their machines.

I'd also take a look at the machines from Home | Tormach | We provide personal small CNC machines, CNC tooling, and many more CNC items . Their users have been pretty happy with their machines, and the company has been aggressively developing new accessories (ie 4th axis, vacuum table, etc.) for the machines.

An advantage of the Tormach's compared to the machine you are looking at is that they use components (PC interface electronics, motor drives, controller software) available from several 3rd parties, so even if the company gets in trouble you'll be able to keep your machine running.

Good luck-

Paul T.
Power Technology

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I am reading up on the Tormach's right now... I am liking what I see. I am still reading their entire site. But I am getting excited just reading about it's features.

Thank you for the recommendation.

Fasto said:

The machine you mentioned is a cnc-d version of a chinese table top "mill", and will probably do an acceptable job machining wax, or butter.
For the $7k they want, a small VMC will be vastly more capable, and actually be able to machine steel in a reasonable period of time.
Unless you really can't find space for a VMC you will be far ahead in getting a VMC over a table top machine.

For making 2-d or 2.5d prototypes, second the Hurco control. Even the ancient ones are easy to use. They can still do G-code from your cam program, too - though the feature set is limited somewhat. IMO, the limited g-code features is not a real issue with cam programming but makes hand-coding more difficult.

Click to expand...

I appreciate your post, but there is a large difference between spending 7K and entree level models costing 30K plus...

I have a 1,200 SqFt Work Shop, the space is not the issue. The Cost of tooling is. I do not plan to produce all my production parts in house. Down the Road I will be moving operations in house and trying to get more space and upgrade machinery.

But for now... I simply can't afford to drop 30-50K on a machine I originally budgeted 10K for... Big difference.

I take it you have some kind of disliking for CNC Masters Products which is fine. But I am sure they are capable of machining steel and then some.
I am just trying to figure out which approach I need to take for my CNC needs.
If you have a better option in mind, within my price range, I would love to know about it.

Thanks.

I have about 5k(3, plus like 1800 shipping) in my Hurco bmc40slv, 1991 model, which is a dream for prototyping, probably less than 5k in glacern vises and toolholders, and it will eat anything mastercam throws at it... in addition to the conversational being a dream. it is possible to put together a professional setup for 10K if you look around, and are frugal. If a hobbyist setup will work for you, more power to you, but from my experience, i would recommend an older industrial setup to a newer hobbyist setup, anyday. YMMV...

-Parker

Parkerbender said:

I have about 5k(3, plus like 1800 shipping) in my Hurco bmc40slv, 1991 model, which is a dream for prototyping, probably less than 5k in glacern vises and toolholders, and it will eat anything mastercam throws at it... in addition to the conversational being a dream. it is possible to put together a professional setup for 10K if you look around, and are frugal. If a hobbyist setup will work for you, more power to you, but from my experience, i would recommend an older industrial setup to a newer hobbyist setup, anyday. YMMV...

-Parker

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I am open to recommendations. I do have a thing about buying used equipment. It always seems like a bad idea to me. You never know how the equipment was used or cared for.

All of the machine shops I worked at always regretted when they made a major purchase on used equipment.

I don't have Alot of money to spend here... I have 10K budgeted but am trying to stay below that if possible. But at the same time I don't wanna buy something used and the machine have major problems or crap out on me within a month.

Do you have any Links or other recommendations on such machinery like you mentioned though? If I could purchase such a thing new I would be all about it.

Maybe try finding a decent used Fadal,they are easy to setup and run,and shouldnt be really expensive since they were less pricey when new.(they went out of business thou).Ive never run one but I have heard many good things about Hurco for onesy twosy stuff.

Gun-Machine said:

I am reading up on the Tormach's right now... I am liking what I see. I am still reading their entire site. But I am getting excited just reading about it's features.

Thank you for the recommendation.

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If you do a google search on "tormach forums" you'll hit a couple of pretty active forums on the machines.

Keep in mind most of the members of this forum are job shop owners, for them a machine like Tormach would be worthless because of its speed, power and size limitations.

For prototyping though, a CNC knee mill or a Tormach (if it fits your size requirements) can work well. You can cut pretty much any material with these, just not fast.

I do mostly prototyping on a CNC knee mill. I would love to have a real VMC but to be honest for most jobs it would slow me down. This is because for a lot of my work the setup time is over 50% of the total job time. Setups take longer on a VMC because of the doors and leaning in factor (especially with my aging body), so even though the machining is faster in the long run a lot of the jobs would take longer and would definitely wear me out more.

The best setup for me would be to have both a knee mill and a VMC for the more machining intensive and longer run jobs, but given only having the cash for one, for my work the knee mill is the better way to go. If I hit the lottery I'm definitely adding a VMC also though.

Good luck-

Paul T.
Power Technology

Gun-Machine said:

I am open to recommendations. I do have a thing about buying used equipment. It always seems like a bad idea to me. You never know how the equipment was used or cared for.

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About 6 years ago my business partner bought one of those machines. Pretty much exactly what you are looking at it there. Same base machine, head looks the same, steppers running Mach3. It had a 4th and some other crap, spent over $8k on it.

It hasn't run in 4 years. Actually it still does, its in his dad's shop and is used as a glorified drill press, with NO CNC capabilities anymore. It was nothing but a giant pile of trouble. Also insanely inaccurate and floppy, very very floppy. There are still a few parts around here that he machined on it, he could have got a better surface finish with a chainsaw while wearing a welding helmet, probably would have held better size too.

He put 100's and 100's of hours into that thing trying to get it to run right.

Even prototyping, that isn't a route that I would even consider.

My partner and I bought our first real machine. An '84 Acroloc, 30+ toolholders and a 4th axis. $1800. We ran that thing for a year and a half. We put in a new coolant pump, a few fuses, new spindle bearings (Dana 70 pinion bearings), and had to clean up the spindle tach.

With your budget, I'd go pick up a little Fadal VMC 15. You'll be money and time ahead in a week. Potentially $100k + ahead in a year. You'll go through a lot less Tylenol too (from beating your head against the wall).

Take a look in the "Deckel, Maho" Forum.
A very capable and established gun maker (Colt45) is using Deckel machines.
I own a Deckel, 1986 vintage, that is extremely capable of prototype work, which is what I do.
Price range is in your ball park, if you can find one.
Accuracy and versatility is way better than all previously mentioned machines.

Service is available from DeckelDoctor, and is second to none.

Just a recommendation from a veteran machinist, 45 yrs.

Steve

Bobw said:

About 6 years ago my business partner bought one of those machines. Pretty much exactly what you are looking at it there. Same base machine, head looks the same, steppers running Mach3. It had a 4th and some other crap, spent over $8k on it.

It hasn't run in 4 years...

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Which machine? The Tormach, or the CNC Masters Baron MIll?

Dennis

Modelman said:

Which machine? The Tormach, or the CNC Masters Baron MIll?

Dennis

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Sorry, the Barron mill, the standard Harbor Freigh/Grizzly heavy bench sized, but not big enough to stand on the floor(without a stand) mill.

PaulT said:

If you do a google search on "tormach forums" you'll hit a couple of pretty active forums on the machines.

Keep in mind most of the members of this forum are job shop owners, for them a machine like Tormach would be worthless because of its speed, power and size limitations.

For prototyping though, a CNC knee mill or a Tormach (if it fits your size requirements) can work well. You can cut pretty much any material with these, just not fast.

I do mostly prototyping on a CNC knee mill. I would love to have a real VMC but to be honest for most jobs it would slow me down. This is because for a lot of my work the setup time is over 50% of the total job time. Setups take longer on a VMC because of the doors and leaning in factor (especially with my aging body), so even though the machining is faster in the long run a lot of the jobs would take longer and would definitely wear me out more.

The best setup for me would be to have both a knee mill and a VMC for the more machining intensive and longer run jobs, but given only having the cash for one, for my work the knee mill is the better way to go. If I hit the lottery I'm definitely adding a VMC also though.

Good luck-

Paul T.
Power Technology

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See, I understand enough about the machines to understand that concept. I operated a CNC machine when I was 17-18 years old. I simply changed the Blanks and Pushed a few buttons, But learned all I could from the guys setting them up. I have since become a skilled Gun smith, and Also worked for a place doing hand machining of custom parts all by hand on a Bridgeport and Lathe.

For me the set up time on a VMC would be too much hassle when I am simply fine tuning and prototyping a part I will pay someone to mass produce for now. In the future when I get the funds and have employees to run such equipment I will bring those types of operations in house. I simply do not have the money for such a Machine.
I'm really liking the Tormach's ease of use and capabilities as I have seen from there web site and videos. I just found another Forum on the tormachs, I am trying to learn all I can about the machine.

sfield222 said:

Take a look in the "Deckel, Maho" Forum.
A very capable and established gun maker (Colt45) is using Deckel machines.
I own a Deckel, 1986 vintage, that is extremely capable of prototype work, which is what I do.
Price range is in your ball park, if you can find one.
Accuracy and versatility is way better than all previously mentioned machines.

Service is available from DeckelDoctor, and is second to none.

Just a recommendation from a veteran machinist, 45 yrs.

Steve

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They appear to be nice machines at a glance ( I don't know enough about them to make the kind of a call) however they are nowhere near my Ball park... Everyone I can find is very expensive.
I have 10,000 I am willing to spend. I don't see any of those machines in that ball park. I may be looking in the wrong places.

Could you point me in the right direction on such a machine?

Befor you make up your mind on a particular machine, take a look at the Tormach PCNC 1100. You can get one brand new for about 12 or 13 thousand dollars. BRAND NEW.

I have seen them run and I am very impressed with what I saw.