Advice on tolling up a Speedio

trochoidalpath · Dec 3, 2019

Looking forward to getting a S500X1, and I thought I’d solicit some opinions on my initial tooling plan. Prototype and light production in aluminum and stainless — end mills tend to stay set up.

ER collet chucks:
- 2 ea ER11 slim nose (60mm, 16mm nose)
- 4 ea ER16 short (63mm)
- 2 ea ER16 medium (100mm)
- 4 ea ER32 short (63mm)
SK collet chucks:
- 2 ea SK10 (45mm)
- 2 ea SK16 (60mm)
1 Face mill arbor (45mm)
2 ea Schunk Tendo-E (51mm) in 3/8, 1/2
1 Nikken 3/4” milling chuck (63mm)

My thought is to use the milling chuck for heavy roughing, hydraulics for finishing, SK for end mills, and ER for drills, taps, and everything else.

I’m a little worried about using side locks, since I would have to stock Weldon flat end mills — right now everything is cylindrical shank which keeps tool management a little simpler.

The milling chuck is quite expensive so maybe I could live without it?

I could get NT hydraulic chucks instead of Schunk; 5mm less gage length but a much wider nose. Also much more expensive.

Or I could suck it up, buy an induction heater, and move everything other than ER collets to shrink fit?

Any thoughts and advice welcome, thanks!

D.D.Machine · Dec 3, 2019

FYI
you don't need a induction heater for shrink holders,, I have been using a MAP torch from home depot for the last 6 year ,,, the holders are holding up great. I just go around the tool and heat it up good then pull out cutter with vise grips and put the new tool in the holder by hand and let it cool .. the only down side is the cooling takes a long time ,, so I got a few extra holders .

As for what holders you need ,, get the few you "NOW" your going to use and get the rest as you need them .

gkoenig · Dec 3, 2019

Congratulations on the S500!

What is the exact kind of work you are doing here? I'm saw your posts asking about 3D finishing, and I see sort of a trend in your tooling list for long-reach/small nose tools. Are you doing a lot of 4th axis work? Aluminum or harder materials?

The most important key to running a BT30 machine is keep gauge lengths as short as possible. One of the problems when you get into things like milling chucks, shrink fit, and hydraulic is that the companies who make most of those do not understand this fundamental aspect of BT30. I've tested a number of milling chucks (including Big Kaiser's new compact BBT30), and have never been impressed with any of them because they tend to have massive gauge lengths. For roughing applications, you would do well to live with Weldon flats (or using a green grinding wheel to put a flat on the carbide yourself) and run Maritool's super stubby side-lock holders.

Finishing cuts are a different beast because the side load on the tool is much less, but gauge length is still a major factor. I've settled on Maritool SK16 for every finishing end mill in my turret. The concentricity is great, the vibration dampening is great and the flexibility of having one collet system is totally worth it. I would also look at Big Kaiser MEGA collets, which are extraordinary, but way more money. Rego Fix is the ultimate answer if you can afford it. ER16 holds all my drills/taps/reamers, with a couple of ER25s around for bigger stuff.

I would hold off on the Schunk hydraulics for now. Even fussy Speedio users are getting great surfaces with SK. Hydraulic tends to be way psst the cost:benefit curve's inflection point.

The face mill arbor is way less important than the selection of a face mill. What are you looking to do with it exactly (my belief is that face mills are really for finishing in these machines, not big material removal).

SND · Dec 3, 2019

Something about " Only buy the best super Hercules on viagra strength pull studs ".

Mtndew · Dec 3, 2019

trochoidalpath said:
I’m a little worried about using side locks, since I would have to stock Weldon flat end mills

HUH? Just hand grind a flat on a pedestal grinder with a green wheel, I've been doing that for 20+ years.
And my advice would be to not mix collet sizes. We only have ER25 on our smaller machines and ER40 on our larger ones.
SK is really nice too.
Milling chucks are nice, but on a Speedio they really aren't necessary as you can't push the BT30 as hard as you can a Cat 40.

Mike1974 · Dec 3, 2019

gkoenig said:
Congratulations on the S500!

What is the exact kind of work you are doing here? I'm saw your posts asking about 3D finishing, and I see sort of a trend in your tooling list for long-reach/small nose tools. Are you doing a lot of 4th axis work? Aluminum or harder materials?

The most important key to running a BT30 machine is keep gauge lengths as short as possible. One of the problems when you get into things like milling chucks, shrink fit, and hydraulic is that the companies who make most of those do not understand this fundamental aspect of BT30. I've tested a number of milling chucks (including Big Kaiser's new compact BBT30), and have never been impressed with any of them because they tend to have massive gauge lengths. For roughing applications, you would do well to live with Weldon flats (or using a green grinding wheel to put a flat on the carbide yourself) and run Maritool's super stubby side-lock holders.

Finishing cuts are a different beast because the side load on the tool is much less, but gauge length is still a major factor. I've settled on Maritool SK16 for every finishing end mill in my turret. The concentricity is great, the vibration dampening is great and the flexibility of having one collet system is totally worth it. I would also look at Big Kaiser MEGA collets, which are extraordinary, but way more money. Rego Fix is the ultimate answer if you can afford it. ER16 holds all my drills/taps/reamers, with a couple of ER25s around for bigger stuff.

I would hold off on the Schunk hydraulics for now. Even fussy Speedio users are getting great surfaces with SK. Hydraulic tends to be way psst the cost:benefit curve's inflection point.

The face mill arbor is way less important than the selection of a face mill. What are you looking to do with it exactly (my belief is that face mills are really for finishing in these machines, not big material removal).

Not exactly apples to apples here, but I ran a robo with a 5th axis and we had to have extended reach tooling...

GK is correct though, gage length as short as possible (ie don't worry about buying medium-long gage length tool holders unless you know you will need them). Also, I would skip the 3/4" holder all together. If you need length and rigidity for long walls etc use a reduced neck 3/8-1/2" tool if possible.

Mike1974 · Dec 3, 2019

Mtndew said:
HUH? Just hand grind a flat on a pedestal grinder with a green wheel, I've been doing that for 20+ years.
And my advice would be to not mix collet sizes. We only have ER25 on our smaller machines and ER40 on our larger ones.
SK is really nice too.
Milling chucks are nice, but on a Speedio they really aren't necessary as you can't push the BT30 as hard as you can a Cat 40.

I know I know!! :wrong:

I've worked with people that insist you need a true weldon to use a side lock. :rolleyes5:

I've always done what you said, pedestal grinder and dust a little flat. Heck, it doesn't need to even have much of a 'dimple' just a bit of a flat for the set screw to hold against. I've even run finish paths with a solid carbide no flat in a side lock. Ever get a .0003" slip fit shaft/bore started crooked? Doesn't take much to lock it up good, now put a set screw on it and it is not going anywhere (relatively speaking...).

Finegrain · Dec 3, 2019

I like my 3/8" and 1/2" Schunk Tendos a lot. All my finishers run in them.
I am now trialing Maritool "corncob" carbide roughers in sidelocks. So far, so good! Looks like that will be my roughing tool from now on.
A lot of ER16 (mostly 65mm gage length) and a few ER32, but also really like having a few ER11's to sneak into tight spots.

As others have mentioned, shortest gage length possible. I get a lot of use out of Maritool 50mm gage length ER16. If I had to do it over, I would trade some of my 80's for 50's.

Regards.

Mike

Rick Finsta · Dec 3, 2019

I prefer grinding my own flats because it allows me to shorten gauge length to the absolute minimum for a job.

I would also suggest looking at some SBL6 slim fit holders. They were nice for getting into tight spaces while keeping stickout as low as possible.

I would say you will find yourself using a few 3/4" shank tools if you do anything with slitting saws, etc.

gustafson · Dec 3, 2019

Unless you are getting a screaming deal on tooling, buy what you know you will need and then buy them as you need them

Money now is worth more than money later

Only tooling I had to wait for was low priced bilz style holders

BROTHERFRANK · Dec 3, 2019

Congrats on the new Speedio. My recommendation would be hold off on the hydraulics and mill chuck. Swap the quantities of the ER16 lengths, get four 100mm and two shorter. Better yet I believe you can get 80mm instead of 100mm. I use those primarily for smaller drills, taps and reamers etc. The 100mm gives you something to hold onto when you load in the magazine. Use the shorter ones for small end mills doing finishing cuts if you must. I've gotten practically zero runout with decent holders and collets. Use actual Inch size collets when holding inch size shanks, 1/2" collet for 1/2" shank etc.. Get side lock 1/2" and 3/8" holders. Those should be your workhorses. Get 50mm gage length ER32 instead of 63mm. Mari and RegoFix both offer that. I wouldn't start out with SKs unless you already have some or really need whatever benefit they can give you. Keep your questions coming. All the best to you!

PS : what is your definition of 'heavy roughing'? This is important info.

trochoidalpath · Dec 3, 2019

gkoenig said:
What is the exact kind of work you are doing here? I'm saw your posts asking about 3D finishing, and I see sort of a trend in your tooling list for long-reach/small nose tools. Are you doing a lot of 4th axis work? Aluminum or harder materials?

Last part was a series of enclosures in 6061, starting from 6x6x1" plate. Two ops. Face, adaptive clear and finish the (irregularly shaped) outside, adaptive clear and finish three 0.78" deep pockets, drill a few 3.2mm holes.

The part before that was a clamping plate. A36, starting from 8x8x1. Roughed away about half of it, finished with a face mill, profile the outside edge, cut a 3D contour with a 3/8" ball mill, slot with a 1/4", spot and drill some M6/M8 holes.

The part before that was a motorcycle part. 7075, starting from 5x7x2. Roughed a bunch of it, semi-finished with a 3/8" ball mill, finished with a 3/16", drilled and tapped a bunch of M6.

I cut a fair bit of 316 as well and the occasional Delrin part.

gkoenig said:
Finishing cuts are a different beast because the side load on the tool is much less, but gauge length is still a major factor. I've settled on Maritool SK16 for every finishing end mill in my turret. The concentricity is great, the vibration dampening is great and the flexibility of having one collet system is totally worth it. I would also look at Big Kaiser MEGA collets, which are extraordinary, but way more money. Rego Fix is the ultimate answer if you can afford it. ER16 holds all my drills/taps/reamers, with a couple of ER25s around for bigger stuff.

Thanks! This is great info.

gkoenig said:
The face mill arbor is way less important than the selection of a face mill. What are you looking to do with it exactly (my belief is that face mills are really for finishing in these machines, not big material removal).

I have a nice little 2" Mitsubishi APX3000. Mostly it does face finishing, but occasionally I will use it to do adaptive clearing in a wide open area of a part that isn't too thick, just to save a toolchange.

trochoidalpath · Dec 3, 2019

BROTHERFRANK said:
Congrats on the new Speedio. My recommendation would be hold off on the hydraulics and mill chuck. Swap the quantities of the ER16 lengths, get four 100mm and two shorter. Better yet I believe you can get 80mm instead of 100mm. I use those primarily for smaller drills, taps and reamers etc. The 100mm gives you something to hold onto when you load in the magazine. Use the shorter ones for small end mills doing finishing cuts if you must. I've gotten practically zero runout with decent holders and collets. Use actual Inch size collets when holding inch size shanks, 1/2" collet for 1/2" shank etc.. Get side lock 1/2" and 3/8" holders. Those should be your workhorses. Get 50mm gage length ER32 instead of 63mm. Mari and RegoFix both offer that. I wouldn't start out with SKs unless you already have some or really need whatever benefit they can give you. Keep your questions coming. All the best to you!

PS : what is your definition of 'heavy roughing'? This is important info.

Great advice here, thanks!

In 316L, something like a Helical HEV-C-5 running at 0.875" DOC and 0.030" stepover, fed as fast as I can get away with. (I'd love your opinion if that's not reasonable!)

BROTHERFRANK · Dec 3, 2019

trochoidalpath said:
Great advice here, thanks!

In 316L, something like a Helical HEV-C-5 running at 0.875" DOC and 0.030" stepover, fed as fast as I can get away with. (I'd love your opinion if that's not reasonable!)

The Helicals are nice. A five flute variable helix is my go to for Stainless, Ti etc... My favorite would be a 3/8 dia. with about 1" LOC. I would start your stepover at .015 to .020" and go up from there. The lower step over helps take advantage of chip thinning and you can really feed fast.

Something like this:
YouTube

DavidScott · Dec 3, 2019

The last time I looked Lyndex had the shortest gage length face mill holder, but that has been a few years ago. At least try the stubby sidelocks, Maritool makes them 5/8" and smaller. The more I use them the more I like them, and way faster swapping tools than collets since there is nothing to clean. I use a small die grinder with a diamond pin in it to grind a flat on the tool, way cleaner than those green wheels. The extra .0001" in runout you may get vs a collet, at least the ones I have measured, is well worth the shorter gage length. Maritool ER20 45mm gage length holders are nice too.

gkoenig · Dec 3, 2019

trochoidalpath said:
I have a nice little 2" Mitsubishi APX3000. Mostly it does face finishing, but occasionally I will use it to do adaptive clearing in a wide open area of a part that isn't too thick, just to save a toolchange.

Not that you can't do this in a Speedio, but I generally recommend that face mills are for finishing in these machines, not big material removal.

It isn't that the machines are not capable of it, is that the process risk with this is very high. You need to be 110% sure of your workholding and cut parameters. Mishaps that a CAT40 machine will laugh off with a face mill are spindle killers in BT30 land. On the other hand, tool changes are basically free now, so you can lose the "save a tool change" thinking.

trochoidalpath · Dec 3, 2019

gkoenig said:
Not that you can't do this in a Speedio, but I generally recommend that face mills are for finishing in these machines, not big material removal.

It isn't that the machines are not capable of it, is that the process risk with this is very high. You need to be 110% sure of your workholding and cut parameters. Mishaps that a CAT40 machine will laugh off with a face mill are spindle killers in BT30 land. On the other hand, tool changes are basically free now, so you can lose the "save a tool change" thinking.

Yep -- I think my plan is to only really use it for face finishing going forward. The optimal Speedio roughing strategy definitely looks like full depth, light radial engagement, and rip around like a banshee.

Earlier on, you mentioned that you use ER16 and some ER25. May I ask why you picked ER25 instead of ER32?

Mike1974 · Dec 3, 2019

trochoidalpath said:
Yep -- I think my plan is to only really use it for face finishing going forward. The optimal Speedio roughing strategy definitely looks like full depth, light radial engagement, and rip around like a banshee.

Earlier on, you mentioned that you use ER16 and some ER25. May I ask why you picked ER25 instead of ER32?

I don't know his reason, but an ER32 in a BT30 is pretty dang big. I would go with ER11/16 and then side locks for bigger stuff.

trochoidalpath · Dec 3, 2019

DavidScott said:
The last time I looked Lyndex had the shortest gage length face mill holder, but that has been a few years ago. At least try the stubby sidelocks, Maritool makes them 5/8" and smaller. The more I use them the more I like them, and way faster swapping tools than collets since there is nothing to clean.

Great tip on the face mill holder! Nikken's have a 1.19" gage length, quite a bit shorter than anything else I've been able to find as well.

Everyone on this thread has pretty much gotten me convinced that short side-locks are the way to go for heavy cutting.

fmari --MariTool- · Dec 3, 2019

Mike1974 said:
I don't know his reason, but an ER32 in a BT30 is pretty dang big. I would go with ER11/16 and then side locks for bigger stuff.

In any other taper ER32 outsells ER25 5:1. But ER25 is a nice fit for BT30. Nose isnt so big and has 5/8 capacity which is good for 90% of your tooling ( or at least it should be).

Yes gage length is super important in 30 taper tooling. My opinion on milling chucks for 30 taper is this. Sure it is nice to have great grip and concentricity. But all milling chucks are longer gage length than short ER collet chucks or super stubby endmill holders. I would never sacrifice gage length if I had the choice.

ER16 is hands down the most popular tool holder in BT30 for us. ER11 and ER20 tied for 2nd.

Advice on tolling up a Speedio

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