Any alternatives to Haas TM-1P?

Hi all. I'm a hobbyist with an interest in making everything from small gears for clocks to mini-jet engines to other small CNC machines. For years, I have been woodworking, and have a 4 foot by 4 foot CNC router in my garage, but I've always wanted to transition to metalworking. I've bought a nice manual lathe, now I need a nice CNC mill. I understand used machines are cheaper than new machines. But really, I'd prefer a shiny new machine. Something that I can buy once, and will last me 20 years. I'm not doing production runs, I'm okay being patient while a part is being milled. And the hours of operation are going to be very low, at least initially. I just need it to entertain me on some weekends.

I have my eyes on a Haas TM-1P. With a 5k off sale right now, I can get one at 36k. The thing that's holding me back from ordering is the price of the options. For example, the wireless probing system is 5.7k? I was thinking it should be more like $300. Even to have the option of using a 3rd party rotary table costs 1.6k, and that's before 2.6k for 4th drive axis and wiring, and a whopping 7.6k to add 5th axis drive and wiring. Even to add 32 GB of memory is 1.1k. Really? In 2019? To add wifi is 2.1k. Unreal.

I like the travels of the TM-1P, the accuracy, repeatability, the brand, and I can't seem to find a new VMC that matches those travels and price. But I don't know if I want to support a company that charges an arm and a leg for every little additional option. Are there any alternatives I haven't found? I've read enough on this forum to be dissuaded from purchasing a CNC bridgeport style mill.

Any recommendations? I guess I'm looking for something above hobby grade, but not necessarily production grade. Thanks so much!

Wishlist
At least 20x10x14
New, not used
Accurate, precise
Ability to run on 120v, or single phase 240v
Small footprint
ATC
Ability to add 4th or 5th axis
Ability to be controlled from mach3, such that it is basically free for me to add 4th or 5th axis.
Under 30k

Do not need
High speed rapids. Just don't be turtle-slow
High horsepower spindle
Full enclosure

Wireless probing $300? Wow. What are you planning on paying for end mills?


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If you want cheaper than that you're definitely in the hobby machine category. Take a look at Syil.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Syil. Would you consider Syil to be a step up from Tormach?

I remember looking at touch probes a while ago, they are not expensive. They can be had for under $300. Now, maybe it's different in the metalworking world, but I think the most expensive endmill I've ever gotten was $100, for a half inch downcut. I'm not going to have any exotic endmills, at least not for a while.

Don't know what kind of probe you are buying but anything of real accuracy and worth costs WAY more than $300. Hell, a good tool holder costs that. What are you expecting to do with it? I was recently amused with a colleague that said he didn't even know how to setup a machine without a probe and presetter.

Good probing costs money. Whether you 'really' need it might be in question.

You are looking at adult machines with adult prices...you gotta pay to play. Maybe you should start with a cnc'd precision Matthews machine lolol.

It's funny you should mention that. I contacted precision matthews regarding their 940 CNC a few days ago. Apparently, they just sold their last one, and they'll be coming out with an improved version in 4 to 6 months time. I'm not too keen on waiting, but maybe I should. I watched a youtube project on a guy converting a 940 to CNC...it looks like a real project, lol. I'd rather just buy one already CNCed for me.

And huleo, as far as probing is concerned, I just wanna use it to find out where the edge of my stock is. Remember, I'm coming from a woodworker's world, so maybe I'm used to much lesser standards as far as precision and tooling is concerned. My first project will probably involve making gears for a clock.

If your trying to cut costs and only need a probe for edge finding, there are other solutions. Like literally 100 other ways to do it. I will put it to you this way, I am amused to watch people waste time going to bump their stock with a probe when the stock is oversized by an inch! You can literally eyeball it, zero your X, and go!

For production first ops, you will find most guys here either bump to a known stop or just draw a line to line up stock.

But just for reference, a $10 "wiggler" edge finder can get you to .001" accuracy and takes an extra 2min to use.

It's very common for people to get a Haimer 3D taster for manual coordinate setting and via google they look to be about $550 ex. CAT40 holder. The Rennishaw wireless probe system on the Haas is actually both a work probe and a tool probe and it is fast and accurate and you get to access the canned probing cycles on the machine which saves all kinds of time. And you can do clever things like use tooling balls as reference points for repositioning a work piece or as a QC measure during machining. If you're doing a lot of work on a machine, especially running lots of single parts, the advantage of a proper probe adds up fast. But as an engineer and dilettante CNC operator I've run a Haas TM-2 with a Haimer and tool setting with a 1" precision round bar and that works fine. I don't think people around here would argue that the Haas is inappropriately priced. That's what real things cost and you will benefit from good productivity, long operating life and therefore great resale value. Yes it's a lot of money especially for a hobby machine but it is still good value and if you get these options you will love the machine forever after.

One thing I would add though, having an enclosure is actually really nice. We went from a 2007 open TM-2 top a closed VM-3 in our shop and the enclosure is just so great. Crank up the rpms and the coolant flow and just watch the fountain splash all over the inside of the machine without coolant all over the floor and all over you.

I have a bit of seat time on a TM-1, and can be rather productive without wireless part or tool probing. For part probing X and Y, I use eyeballs, edge finders, or a wiggler, depending. For Z, I measure down to the table and subtract the height of my toolsetter gauge, or use the machine to make the measurement with a DTI or the toolsetter sitting on top of the part, parallels, vise bed, or whatever. Tools are set to the table, so Z offsets don't change very often. I could use a Haimer Taster for part probing XYZ. I could use a post-it note or dowel for part probing Z.

As for 4th & 5th axis prep, you'll just have to bite the bullet.

The TM-1 can make nice parts with good finishes and interpolates round features quite accurately with essentially nonexistent dwell marks at the reversal locations. It's not super-rigid, but better than a sharp stick in the eye.

Helix888 said:

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Do not need
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Full enclosure

Click to expand...

Every time you are mopping coolant slop and sweeping chips off the floor, you'll wish for an enclosure.

I was looking at the Haas TM 1P a couple months ago and I would recommend going with the TM 2P for a little extra the 16" of Y travel is worth it I have heard the TM 1P can have issues with vises hitting the cabinet.

You don't need a probe to get an edge use a manual $10 edge finder. I would like to have a prob on my machine but isn't necessary. I ended up buying a fairly new used Sharp so I didn't buy the Haas.

I also started with a CNC router and still have one I make a lot of plastic parts that the router works better for than a VMC.

Just to make sure you understand what world you are entering into here, I work full time out of my home shop and I spent more money on my CNC mill in the last 3 months than you're talking about your entire machine costing. Between the deposit, phase converter, rigging, constant tooling purchases, fixtures, yada yada, I think I'm $40,000 into everything over the last couple months. This is NOT woodworking where you can buy something cheap off eBay that kinda works and be totally happy. Crappy probes are sold for crappy machines for cheap prices. This machine is in the realm of machines that are used to make real money, and are bought by people that don't want to dick around with petty crap constantly. You buy this machine so it can make you money every day and you don't have to dink with it any more than you have to. I'd recommend chatting with someone local who has a CNC and getting their mindset of things before getting into this.

Thank you for all the comments. I didn't mean for everyone to focus so heavily on my probing comment. I was just shocked by the price of that feature, that's all. Same with wireless. I expect that to be 40 bucks, not 2 grand. But that's just a comment, I know I don't absolutely need probing or wireless.

Basically, what I want to avoid is starting with a crappy machine, then moving to a better one, then a better one, etc. I'd rather just get something real nice to start with, and keep it for a long time. But it is a hobby for me, I do want to keep it under 30k.

I guess, lemme rephrase what I'm asking you folks. What are my best options, that are better than a 10k tormach, but maybe not as great (or as big) as a 30k haas TM? Thanks!

Your wishlist matches a tormach almost to a T.
For a garage machine accessible at hobbyist prices, you'll probably do well with a Tormach. Get their new one with the servos instead of steppers. They've got a solid community and it's a little more open to tinkering. You'll still spend every penny of $30k by the time you have the machine, a good package of toolholders, collets, an ATC, cutting tools, measuring tools, coolant, workholding, etc.
If you're strictly using it for hobby purposes and understand it's limitations with regard to rigidity, speed, etc that'll do just fine for you. Still knocks the socks off of any G0704/PM25/other DIY stuff. I've seen folks doing pretty good work on them and later selling them for a pretty good % of the original value when their business grows and they trade up to something more capable.


IMO a brand new HAAS isn't necessary for hobby use.
I agree to an extent that charging that much for some of the options is a racket, but that's just how the industrial world is. Everything's expensive. You can make good money with these machines though, so it's not usually a big deal to bite the bullet and pay the man, because features like probing can save you hours and hours. It's not mandatory though, there are a dozen other ways to do it. And stuff like the 32gb memory isn't really necessary...You can fit entire molds into just a few megabytes. If you run out of space, copy it to a flash drive where storage is cheap. and delete it off the control. Shoot, I run a machine with 80k of memory on it. if I need more than that, serial works just fine and it'll chomp through many megabytes of 3d surfacing code.
..And yes, you want an enclosure.

Option the third: Buy a used VMC.
If you've got the time to burn going through it, go buy a used machine! Tons of them to be found for pennies on the dollar, many of them perfectly servicable maybe in need of a scrubbing and some basic maintenance. You get many times the machine for about the total outlay of a tormach. If you're unsure of yourself, stick to the major brands and the fine folks of the internet can surely guide you in the right direction.


Before you make any decision though, go find yourself a local makerspace/hackerspace/fablab/community college/machinist neighbor and take a class or shadow someone for a few days. Having some real experience will help you sort out what the best option for you is and give some perspective.

Yeah. In my heart, I know that a tormach will probably be more than adequate for me, and I know that a haas will be overkill (at least for the time being). I've just read so much against tormach here, it gives me second thoughts. I think Monday I'll go to a machine tool showroom and see what sort of used and new machines they have.

If your really wanting to get into 4 and 5 axis and o it new equipment haas is going to run you $10,000 or so for the drives and another $30,000 for the 5 axis unit. With "hobby" intentions that is way to much cash. Unless your loaded. But the quality will be there

You can get a Syle with mach 3 and plug a $500 5 axis head to it. (Check "nerdly" on YouTube. He has a short vid playing with one)

I cannot speak for other machines but I have a tm-1p and a tm-2 open unit. Love them. Makes money every tome I turn it on and bought them for $17,000 Canadian each with tool holders and vices. Hell the tm-2 cam with a 4th axis and drives. If you want lots of machine for the price the used market is your friend. Tormach prices for entry level industrial quality.

Don't forget whatever machine you get you will be spending a small fortune on tool holders, vice. Cutters....

if I was buying a new tm today there would be 2 options.
Bone stock tm-1 with a coolant pump dirt cheap for a great mill.
Options can be installed later as needed. If your handy you can skip the service call and just order the parts. Most options are software anyways. Quick call and a credit card. Done
Or a tm-2p with a 20 tool changer. A little more but a 20 tool changer and extra travel is worth every penny!

Simple answer to your question.

"everything from small gears for clocks to mini-jet engines to other small CNC machines".

Are you making these for profit, and are these actual solid ideas? Or is this tinkering for fun, or 'I might make a buck' work? If you're in this to make money, put some bucks down and get something that's going to do what you tell it to do. If it's not going to pay for itself, don't spend the money on it.

To OP Helixnn..

Haas is in it to make money, and to support the options sold for 20 years+.
Thus the options get expensive mostly due to the support costs and a desire for a viable business overall.

There are no easy cheap good alternatives for metalworking, with quality, for less money than Haas.

Haas makes a lot of margin on wifi/memory/ec. - yes - but they need it to support cheap frames and base machines and long-term support for 20+ years.

At issue is not the marginal cost for Haas for the wifi and options, but the total viability of the business with some errors on machines that then get cancelled.
Routers (GRxx), automation (APL), minilathes, 5x vmcs, (some pallets), many examples of stuff that was not worth it.

Anyone here who is good and clever can make e.g. a very good probe system, for very little $$ in parts, of equal or better accuracy/repeatability (and 10-20 hr in work/tools/overhead (+)).

No-one can make it, sell it, and support it, *"overall for a lot of machines"* for less than the 5-7k$ in qty 1000 minimum.
Because endless edge cases appear related to sw versions, features, machine age/model/feature sets, mechanicals, etc.

Any industrial supplier MUST price the stuff so they can afford to support the endless variations of issues that crop up.
-- vs making a single-mode, single-issue, "hit/release" probe using a very high accuracy trigger of some type and a basic macro.