Any other good options besides Haas CM1 for micro machining?? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    The air turbine deal in the machine you have seams like a better deal.

    Sounds like a dental drill mounted in a toolholder to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    You have to look at the actual machining time including the accel and deccels on the moves between holes. We would be glad to actually run a test as I have a Brother 27k coming to the Yorba Linda showroom in a week. Maybe two machines would out produce three with less quick response time. I have a customer who moved his parts from a has to a Brother with thousands of holes and cut times in half. I am sure they would share their experiences. Also, depending on when you go pricing, the yen to dollar ratio maybe favoring you a bit now.


    Andy Dukes
    Yamazen
    If I had holes to drill that would likely make a lot of sense. This is 3D machining limited by the spindle and tool. Less than 50 tool changes per 24 hours. Not sure faster tool changes, ramp up, accel/decel will help as I cant get over 20ipm in a dream much less real life even at 30K rpm

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    Quote Originally Posted by PriddyShiddy View Post
    If I had holes to drill that would likely make a lot of sense. This is 3D machining limited by the spindle and tool. Less than 50 tool changes per 24 hours. Not sure faster tool changes, ramp up, accel/decel will help as I cant get over 20ipm in a dream much less real life even at 30K rpm
    Without seeing the application, it is hard to comment. I don't get the 20IPM even with unlimited RPM. I think stability would be the most critical thing in that case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle1000 View Post
    I bought a VM2 new in 2012 and it has been just like the old controls, with better/easier probe routines. (I bought my first in '98)But I have not used any year newer than that.

    I also bought a ST10 in 2013 and it seems the same old control in terms of HAAS but my first lathe so not sure if they changed anything in that regard.

    Gary
    I don't think anything changed between the "new" VMC's in 2010 or whenever it was that the display went to the quad pane look and 2014.

    It was only when early 2016 rolled around that the "next gen control" came out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    The air turbine deal in the machine you have seams like a better deal.

    Sounds like a dental drill mounted in a toolholder to me.
    Tried it. I have an AirTurbine 60K RPM. Thing is smooth as silk and quiet as a mouse. Wired up to relay air supply already on the TM. Pretty damn long though. Every tool has to be about the same length or add Pcool to get coolant to the tool when I go from on of the 14 tools to another. Min of 5 tiny tools per part at around $2K per speedie little air spindle means $10K plus changing blocks out to air feed block since I need my coolant feed block for my BIG K 5x speeder for other production parts. I need MORE spindles. Spending hours a week changing things back and forth isn't fun... Buying a dedicated machine means no changing fixtures, tools, offsets, touch off, spending $10k just for the PITA of using a bunch of speeders that need to be rebuilt occasionally and listening to my compressor fire more often.

    I'm not a fan of tool changing the BIG K since it failed on me once I had had to grind the spindle >:-(

    Plus I can use my machine for prototyping new designs, making custom designs (over 40 requests for custom work on these same parts in the last 6 months since launching them), plus I can selectively bring back some of my job shop customers. I have fired all but one of them in the last 3 months. Just flat out "No. Sorry, I can no longer do any work for you until my situation changes". I tell you what... THAT FELT GREAT. Haven't had a massive headache, kicked my machine or lost money on a job since I did that.

    No matter how fast you can machine a part there is change over time. Having one machine running while changing over another is literally 2x the money. I estimate an 85% efficiency rating on machine time on these parts. With job shop stuff it's maybe 60% on a GREAT day. Add those two together even if the new machine WASN'T faster I could afford to get the 2 ply for a change

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  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by PriddyShiddy View Post
    How much overhang can you get away with in the Y axis for vises? On my TM2P I have 3" rear and 7" off the front. I am wondering If I could get away with a 15" chick vise or if I need to use their 1030 which is 11.5". I ask because they don't make the fixed jaw set up for the 1030 but they do for the 1040 which would add a little extra usefulness if I did need to use the OM2(if I go used) for another set up.

    Looking at the travels and dimensions I found it shows 26" inside dimension and 20" 'used' with table travel. Can you really hang 3" off front and rear without hitting anything?
    Zero, or a few mm at max. There is a reason the machine is small... I have solved it by mounting three Triag vise bases in the X direction, which gives me a very versatile system. I can clamp one large(ish..) part or a lot of small ones. There is a picture of my set-up on this forum somewhere, however I could not find it.

    /Staffan

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Without seeing the application, it is hard to comment. I don't get the 20IPM even with unlimited RPM. I think stability would be the most critical thing in that case.
    Pocketing tool steel with a 0.005" tip the fastest I have been able to get is 3ipm at 6K rpm. 5x that at 30K would be 15 and maybe with smoother motion and a/d I could get up to 20 is where my math came from. Hard to say till I try it. I know MY machine isn't designed for this and can't move that 60K spindle fast enough in corners to keep the tool from breaking within one part, but maybe on a better machine it'll be possible to do these at 100ipm. Don't really know. My dreams are based on my experiences. Looking forward to trying it on a faster spindle and finding out.

    My brain keeps telling me there has to be a point of diminishing return or a threshold. Meaning I don't think 600,000 rpm will allow 3,000ipm feed rates. These are all point to point and pretty big files. Likely data starving on the OM or CM may be my limitation before spindle speed. Hard to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PriddyShiddy View Post
    Pocketing tool steel with a 0.005" tip the fastest I have been able to get is 3ipm at 6K rpm. 5x that at 30K would be 15 and maybe with smoother motion and a/d I could get up to 20 is where my math came from. Hard to say till I try it. I know MY machine isn't designed for this and can't move that 60K spindle fast enough in corners to keep the tool from breaking within one part, but maybe on a better machine it'll be possible to do these at 100ipm. Don't really know. My dreams are based on my experiences. Looking forward to trying it on a faster spindle and finding out.

    My brain keeps telling me there has to be a point of diminishing return or a threshold. Meaning I don't think 600,000 rpm will allow 3,000ipm feed rates. These are all point to point and pretty big files. Likely data starving on the OM or CM may be my limitation before spindle speed. Hard to say.
    Did we try to cut something for you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Did we try to cut something for you?
    Are you asking if you offered to? If so yes, but I don't want to waste mine or your time since I am not going to finance a machine this year so seeing the brother I can't afford make my parts faster isn't really a great expenditure of either of our time. I can buy the Haas outright this year and was looking for machines in the same class... Brother is a little above my piggy bank level right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PriddyShiddy View Post
    Pocketing tool steel with a 0.005" tip the fastest I have been able to get is 3ipm at 6K rpm. 5x that at 30K would be 15 and maybe with smoother motion and a/d I could get up to 20 is where my math came from. Hard to say till I try it. I know MY machine isn't designed for this and can't move that 60K spindle fast enough in corners to keep the tool from breaking within one part, but maybe on a better machine it'll be possible to do these at 100ipm. Don't really know. My dreams are based on my experiences. Looking forward to trying it on a faster spindle and finding out.
    Having very extensive experience with those 60K Air Turbines you're putting to much fault on the machines motion control. The spindle bearings on those things are not very good. We went through 12+ of them to get 6 decent ones and then within two months shelved them all for NSK. Damn near any modern CNC can handle surfacing into the 80ipm range before the motion control becomes a factor. NSK has loaner/demo turbines for you to try and they're half the length of other stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TKassoc View Post
    Having very extensive experience with those 60K Air Turbines you're putting to much fault on the machines motion control. The spindle bearings on those things are not very good. We went through 12+ of them to get 6 decent ones and then within two months shelved them all for NSK. Damn near any modern CNC can handle surfacing into the 80ipm range before the motion control becomes a factor. NSK has loaner/demo turbines for you to try and they're half the length of other stuff.
    I am guessing you have not run a tm2p at 80 inches a minute surfacing

    Wrong words courtesy of Tapatalk and Voice To Text. You bar well come.

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    You are very likely correct about the bearings though. I did try using it with 1/8 inch End Mill when I first got it we're doing slots and if they were not bad before that they sure as hell aren't much better afterwards. It does not change the fact that I need a second machine. Honestly even with the 6000 RPM spindle I am making money on these. If I could just double the speed I would be happy as a clam (for now). Being able to double the speed and get them off of this machine so I can use this for other stuff even better.

    I am thinking I'll be able to do better than double with 5x the speed and a machine at least intended for this type of work. The TM 2p is completely unsuited for this. It doesn't have anywhere near the acceleration deceleration that the vf series do

    Wrong words courtesy of Tapatalk and Voice To Text. You bar well come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tjugo7 View Post
    Zero, or a few mm at max. There is a reason the machine is small... I have solved it by mounting three Triag vise bases in the X direction, which gives me a very versatile system. I can clamp one large(ish..) part or a lot of small ones. There is a picture of my set-up on this forum somewhere, however I could not find it.

    /Staffan
    I was overly pesimistic, there are close to 3" (approx 66mm) front of tha table. See picture with table in home position.

    space.jpg

    /Staffan

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    NICE! that's all I would need for a pair of Chik 1040 vises. If I toss some 150mm wide fixture plates with uniforce clamps I can fixture the entire travels and change parts over in 90 seconds.

    Thank you for measuring!

    Wrong words courtesy of Tapatalk and Voice To Text. You bar well come.

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    You might take a look at a Tsugami VA2. 30K rpm and the machine is 41" wide and about 7 feet deep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey_D View Post
    You might take a look at a Tsugami VA2. 30K rpm and the machine is 41" wide and about 7 feet deep.
    Quote requested... Makino still hasn't replied so I guess my money is no good there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PriddyShiddy View Post
    Makino still hasn't replied so I guess my money is no good there.
    It's 2X your budget so no loss there.

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    I think I'm done looking. Found what seems to be an un passable deal on a used machine that has 300 hours on it. I'll know in a couple days if it's heading my way.

    Wrong words courtesy of Tapatalk and Voice To Text. You bar well come.

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    Why don't you look at some of the router type engraveing machines, there way more set-up for the kinda spindle speeds fast low force movements you need. Some of the better sign-age style engravers may even be the real answer, then just use your VMC capabilities for the facing and cut off. Some simple fixtures and shuffling the work around so you make real good use of multiple small high speed spindles would be a lot less than the numbers your dropping. CNC Engravers and Routers - Engraving Systems Support You don't need 10's of hp to run a 5 thou engraving tool, you do want all the spindle speed you can get and you do want the finest smoothest motion control though!

    IMHO it sounds like your trying to combine the engraving like work in the cnc as one setup, when it may just make sense to break it down into different operations on different machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    Why don't you look at some of the router type engraveing machines, there way more set-up for the kinda spindle speeds fast low force movements you need. Some of the better sign-age style engravers may even be the real answer, then just use your VMC capabilities for the facing and cut off. Some simple fixtures and shuffling the work around so you make real good use of multiple small high speed spindles would be a lot less than the numbers your dropping. CNC Engravers and Routers - Engraving Systems Support You don't need 10's of hp to run a 5 thou engraving tool, you do want all the spindle speed you can get and you do want the finest smoothest motion control though!

    IMHO it sounds like your trying to combine the engraving like work in the cnc as one setup, when it may just make sense to break it down into different operations on different machines.
    I've never seen one do any kind of real production on micro machining. Most don't have tool changers or flood coolant and specifically ONLY list 'aluminum also' as an add afterthought. These are not engraved. They are 3D machined using engraving type tool paths. Perhaps there is an engraver that would fit the bill but I have not seen it, don't really trust them, and suspect that when you add the needed travel, tool changer and coolant it's going to be pretty darn close to the cost of the cost of a used machine I know can run 24 hour days. Not saying they can't... but not interested in spending the next 6 weeks sending samples to companies to make test parts to end up with a 300lb machine that can do some of the work and nothing else. Some of these parts will be up to 3/4" which is far from micro engraving. I am looking for one machine to do them all. The OM2A and CM1 are designed to do exactly what I need done. I was just checking to see if there were any similar options... so far the answer has been no. Everything thrown out is 2x more money or doesn't have the same capabilities. I do hope and plan to have a bother sitting next to this next year but I have a literal ton of parts to make to pay for it first.


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