Anyone else have a HAAS TL1 Next Gen Controller (threading issue)
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  1. #1
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    Angry Anyone else have a HAAS TL1 Next Gen Controller (threading issue)

    Hello,

    We have a fairly new Haas TL1 with the Next Gen Controller (<2 years old), and have spent what seems like half our lives trying to get standard threads to work. 1/2-13, etc.

    I'm writing to find out if anyone else has this same model to see if they are seeing the same issues.

    We have worked for hours with Haas Service people. And we are still scratching our heads.

    We create a very basic threading cycle to thread 1/2-13 on a 1/2" stock material. Expected minor thread dia is 0.416". However, the machine does not go deep enough. The result is flat outer threads, with minor thread dia around 0.451".

    We have to "trick" the machine into thinking it needs to go to a minor dia of 0.381" in order to get a true 0.416" minor dia. We need to do this with both the VPS (visual programming) or a G76 threading cycle program.

    All offsets, nose radius settings, etc have been removed and are at factory defaults. In fact, we learned that the TL1 ignores the nose radius setting on a thread cycle anyway... The software on this machine is 100% up to date.

    After speaking with Haas (direct) apps, we were told that this was on purpose, so that the user doesn't accidentally cut too deep!

    I could see a reason for this, but to have to "trick" the system on the depth by typing in an even smaller depth seems completely OUTRAGEOUS!

    I'd be really interested to hear from someone else that has this same machine, if they are seeing the same results.

    I may NEVER buy a Haas again, mostly due to the time and money we have spent trying to figure this out!

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    have you tried contacting Haas applications in CA ? they are normally very good at walking you thru issues like this.

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    The authorized tech that was here contacted Haas applications while he was here. They told us that we had to keep tricking the depth on the threads until we got what we wanted.

    We were going to try adding in a tool nose radius to see if that helped, but we learned that it is ignored in the software on this machine.

    It just sounds ridiculous to me to have to "trick" the system like this.

    Looking for someone that also has this same machine to verify if they get the same results.

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    By the way, do you have contact info for them? I'd like to express my disgust with them directly. However, every number I call leads me to the authorized service folks which I already have out here.

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    That... sounds preposterous. What in the world? What does the code look like? I assume you're making the thread cycle using the conversational programming.

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    that doesn't sound right.

    the same software that runs the TL machines also runs on the big ones, and the big ones seem to be making good threads all day.

    send me some code and i can try it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMNTS View Post

    After speaking with Haas (direct) apps, we were told that this was on purpose, so that the user doesn't accidentally cut too deep!

    I could see a reason for this, but to have to "trick" the system on the depth by typing in an even smaller depth seems completely OUTRAGEOUS!
    I'm gonna call BS on that. Sounds like a BS excuse for not fixing it. If it actually is true its a counter productive stupid idea. It would make you more likely to cut undersize cause you would be adding another step and calculation to come up with some make believe number in order to hit a real size

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    Do you have a huge stupid nose radius??

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    I have a new st15 with the NGC control and its threading great ... I am thinking you might not be writing the G76 code correctly?

    G76 can be old school "ONE" line code or newer "TWO line code ... Haas well run both on the NGC control.

    I mostly use the old one line stuff in that is dead simple

    T0404 ( 20 pitch thread)
    M08 ( Coolant on )
    G97 ( content speed )
    M03 S1500 ( spindle on and speed )
    G00 X .500 Z.2 ( start point ) ( thread pitch times 4 gives me the lead in length ) (set X about .005 bigger than od )
    G76 x0.436 Z-1. K0.032 d.01 f0.05 ( X is miner DIA ) (K is thread length )( D is first cut depth ) ( F is feed per rev )
    M09 ( coolant off )
    g00 G53 x0. ( home X axis)
    G00 G53 z0. (home Z axis )


    Its just simple
    The only thing you really have to watch is that you keep (K) set to half the difference of start dia and finish dia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedie View Post
    Do you have a huge stupid nose radius??
    The same people told us that on the TL-1 the tool nose radius is completely ignored!

    Yes, we tried this any way, and it made zero difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coyoinu View Post
    that doesn't sound right.

    the same software that runs the TL machines also runs on the big ones, and the big ones seem to be making good threads all day.

    send me some code and i can try it out.
    It's the same software but we were told that it does this ONLY on the TL-1. ARGHH!!!!

    If I could just find a phone number to call and escalate this at HAAS....

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    Yes, I can confirm we are writing the G Code Correctly.

    We have spent several hundred hours working on this. We have done G76, G92, etc. etc.

    We have had several paid Haas authorized technicians come in and do it. They even went as far as to bring in their own tooling.

    I personally have researched threading to the point where I could probably now teach a short course on the subject.

    We are forced to lie to the machine just to get the desired depth. And it's absolutely crazy to me (and also to everyone that has touched this machine).

    I really hope someone else with the SAME model & Gen runs into this thread. I would love to hear if this is consistent and not just a bunch of BS.

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    The code is extremely basic. For example, we just want a standard 1/2-13 thread. Below is what we would generate from the VPS screen. We could also write it from scratch. But here is an example. We are not using tool nose radius, or anything else.

    The G76 has a minor dia set at 0.416 BUT it does not go there. It's about 0.035" large. EVERY SINGLE TIME. So, we would have to change the Major Dia. by 0.035" in order to get the depth we need.

    (OD THREAD CYCLE)
    ( SAFETY LINE BELOW )
    G00 G54 G18 G40 G80 G97 G99
    (TOOL = 5 / OFFSET = 5)
    (WORK OFFSET = 54)
    (SPINDLE RPM = 550)
    (THREADS PER INCH = 13.0)
    (THREAD MAJOR DIAMETER = 0.5)
    (THREAD MINOR DIAMETER = 0.416923)
    (THREAD HEIGHT PER SIDE = 0.048077)
    (OPTIMIZED "A" VALUE FOR 60 DEGREE THREADS)
    (SEE SETTINGS 95, 96, 99 AND 289 ON THE CONTROL)
    T505
    G54
    G97 S550 M03
    G00 Z0.01
    G00 X0.52
    M08
    (**WATCH FOR LIVE CENTER INTERFERENCE**)
    (RECOMMENDED Z-AXIS START IS 3 THREADS FROM START POINT)
    G00 X0.52 Z0.01 M24
    G76 X0.4169 Z-3. K0.0481 D0.012 F0.0769 A60
    G00 Z0.01
    M09
    G00 X5. (SAFE TC POSITION)
    G00 Z0.25 (SAFE TC POSITION)
    M05
    ( END OD THREAD CYCLE )
    M01

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    A couple thoughts -

    How are you checking the minor diameter? That is really a theoretical number for an OD thread (theoretical I said gents!), there might be some outfits checking that, but usually threads are checked with go-nogo gauges for pitch diameter, and OD obviously has to be good for OD thread, but minor could be undersized and still check ok with a gauge (I think?) unless you do a visual check as well (microview/cmm)

    ANSI External Screw Threads Size Tolerances Chart - Engineers Edge

    It is different than pitch diameter (btw this chart shows minor at .405 for a 3a thread), which is what you need to control. If you get a thread insert good for IDK 10-20 tpi, you will have to check the pitch for each size depending on the thread insert radius.

    This insert has a .002" CR

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/76639772

    Not sure if I am explaining it incorrectly, maybe someone else can chime in...

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    Machinist Handbook lists the minor for 1/2-13 UNC-2A at .404.
    I have never had a thread gage correctly and have the minor anywhere close to what The Book says it should be. It's always been smaller.

    How are you checking the minor?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Booze Daily View Post
    Machinist Handbook lists the minor for 1/2-13 UNC-2A at .404.
    I have never had a thread gage correctly and have the minor anywhere close to what The Book says it should be. It's always been smaller.

    How are you checking the minor?
    A quick check with (good) calipers shows a 1/2-13 shcs at about .415" AND I can see plenty of daylight so I know my calipers are not connecting at the actual minor diameter, they are stopping on the thread flanks/sides so...

    I can't imagine a good way to check the minor on an OD thread. Have you checked with pitch mics or thread wires, a nut laying around, a thread ring gage...?

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    Optical comparator

    Edit: Just did a quick check on a hardware store 1/2-13. Minor checked .400. Also had a .010 radius at the root.

    A smaller rad. would take the minor smaller to get the same P.D.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    A quick check with (good) calipers shows a 1/2-13 shcs at about .415" AND I can see plenty of daylight so I know my calipers are not connecting at the actual minor diameter, they are stopping on the thread flanks/sides so...

    I can't imagine a good way to check the minor on an OD thread. Have you checked with pitch mics or thread wires, a nut laying around, a thread ring gage...?
    I use an optical comparator all the time for checking threads. Usually though I have to use molds because the parts/threads are too big. Still accurate enough for good fits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMNTS View Post
    ...

    (OD THREAD CYCLE)
    ...
    M01
    cool thanks. I'll test this when i get a chance.

    question: when you're setting up your threading tool, how much diameter wear offsetting do you make before the thread gages correctly?

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    Everybody:

    Yes, we used proper tools for measuring the thread minor OD. We have several people do it. It's off by 0.035" (not deep enough).

    Yes, we are using the proper measurement tools, the proper settings for the tooling, AND the proper G Code for the expected thread.

    We have tried this upside down, backwards, and in 8 different languages. We have had the experts of experts in here.

    It's either a machine problem, software problem, or Haas problem.

    My main goal of this post was to find someone with the same model and generation machine to confirm if what Haas is telling me is true.... that they do this on purpose.


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