Thread: Anyone else have a HAAS TL1 Next Gen Controller (threading issue)

Originally Posted by LMNTS

Hello,

We have a fairly new Haas TL1 with the Next Gen Controller (<2 years old), and have spent what seems like half our lives trying to get standard threads to work. 1/2-13, etc.

I'm writing to find out if anyone else has this same model to see if they are seeing the same issues.

We have worked for hours with Haas Service people. And we are still scratching our heads.

We create a very basic threading cycle to thread 1/2-13 on a 1/2" stock material. Expected minor thread dia is 0.416". However, the machine does not go deep enough. The result is flat outer threads, with minor thread dia around 0.451".

We have to "trick" the machine into thinking it needs to go to a minor dia of 0.381" in order to get a true 0.416" minor dia. We need to do this with both the VPS (visual programming) or a G76 threading cycle program.

All offsets, nose radius settings, etc have been removed and are at factory defaults. In fact, we learned that the TL1 ignores the nose radius setting on a thread cycle anyway... The software on this machine is 100% up to date.

After speaking with Haas (direct) apps, we were told that this was on purpose, so that the user doesn't accidentally cut too deep!

I could see a reason for this, but to have to "trick" the system on the depth by typing in an even smaller depth seems completely OUTRAGEOUS!

I'd be really interested to hear from someone else that has this same machine, if they are seeing the same results.

I may NEVER buy a Haas again, mostly due to the time and money we have spent trying to figure this out!

Originally Posted by LMNTS

It's the same software but we were told that it does this ONLY on the TL-1. ARGHH!!!!

If I could just find a phone number to call and escalate this at HAAS....

Originally Posted by LMNTS

Yes, I can confirm we are writing the G Code Correctly.

We have spent several hundred hours working on this. We have done G76, G92, etc. etc.

We have had several paid Haas authorized technicians come in and do it. They even went as far as to bring in their own tooling.

I personally have researched threading to the point where I could probably now teach a short course on the subject.

We are forced to lie to the machine just to get the desired depth. And it's absolutely crazy to me (and also to everyone that has touched this machine).

I really hope someone else with the SAME model & Gen runs into this thread. I would love to hear if this is consistent and not just a bunch of BS.

Originally Posted by LMNTS

Everybody:

Yes, we used proper tools for measuring the thread minor OD. We have several people do it. It's off by 0.035" (not deep enough).

Yes, we are using the proper measurement tools, the proper settings for the tooling, AND the proper G Code for the expected thread.

We have tried this upside down, backwards, and in 8 different languages. We have had the experts of experts in here.

It's either a machine problem, software problem, or Haas problem.

My main goal of this post was to find someone with the same model and generation machine to confirm if what Haas is telling me is true.... that they do this on purpose.

Well I am calling BS on the OP. First he insists the MINOR diameter is off (which is irrelevant), but won't tell us how he/they are checking it. Then he asks where to set the comp on X so he has no idea how to freaking run a cnc, let alone how to check something.

Listen, it is fine if you don't understand how to do something, we can help - BUT MOTHERFUCKERS NEED TO MAN UP and admit that from the start instead of spouting bullshit about "never buying a Haas again" or the similar lines of shit they say when they don't fucking get it.

Originally Posted by coyoinu

on the tool offset page, scroll to the right until you can see the wear offset. you can't just type in -.013, you have to sneak up on whatever value incrementally, generally by less than the tolerance of your pitch diameters which should be listed on your gauges.

We ran a 1/2-13 thread this morning, increasing x geometry wear offset by -0.003 per cycle. On the 9th cycle, we were at -0.024" offset and finally achieved a good thread.

The X reading on the DRO at final pass was always 0.4169" regardless of our offset.

This seems to be a much better approach than having to trick the machine on the major OD.

THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.

Originally Posted by LMNTS

The X reading on the DRO at final pass was always 0.4169" regardless of our offset.

Uhh.. because THAT'S HOW OFFSETS WORK?

Originally Posted by TeachMePlease

Uhh.. because THAT'S HOW OFFSETS WORK?

Exactly the point I was making - - OP doesn't understand how it works, but spouts off about Haas. I get it, people think I am a Haas fanboy, and I am to a degree. But it just pisses me the EFF off when people run their mouths about shit they don't understand.
Just like the thread about the broken pullstud, guy slams a well known/respected member here with no 'proof' it had anything to do with their product.

Originally Posted by Mike1974

Exactly the point I was making - - OP doesn't understand how it works, but spouts off about Haas. I get it, people think I am a Haas fanboy, and I am to a degree. But it just pisses me the EFF off when people run their mouths about shit they don't understand.
Just like the thread about the broken pullstud, guy slams a well known/respected member here with no 'proof' it had anything to do with their product.

I can't help but wonder if OP was being dramatic, or if they've literally wasted 100s of hours on this "problem"...

Originally Posted by TeachMePlease

I can't help but wonder if OP was being dramatic, or if they've literally wasted 100s of hours on this "problem"...

Originally Posted by Mike1974

Well I am calling BS on the OP. First he insists the MINOR diameter is off (which is irrelevant), but won't tell us how he/they are checking it. Then he asks where to set the comp on X so he has no idea how to freaking run a cnc, let alone how to check something.

Listen, it is fine if you don't understand how to do something, we can help - BUT MOTHERFUCKERS NEED TO MAN UP and admit that from the start instead of spouting bullshit about "never buying a Haas again" or the similar lines of shit they say when they don't fucking get it.

Just for future reference, if I ever have any lathe questions, please be forewarned that I am indeed a complete idiot when it comes to running a CNC lathe. I have them and I hate them... I lost interest in making round parts when I got tired of making fake turds out of clay in grade school art class .

I think I would have been confused as well if the Haas canned cycle added .035" to the wear offset in order to mandate sneaking up on the dimension. Not saying it is a bad idea, just a bit confusing.

Back to setting up a mill... where the X is X and the Y is Y and the Z goes up and down like it ought to .

Originally Posted by G00 Proto

Just for future reference, if I ever have any lathe questions, please be forewarned that I am indeed a complete idiot when it comes to running a CNC lathe. I have them and I hate them... I lost interest in making round parts when I got tired of making fake turds out of clay in grade school art class .

I think I would have been confused as well if the Haas canned cycle added .035" to the wear offset in order to mandate sneaking up on the dimension. Not saying it is a bad idea, just a bit confusing.

Back to setting up a mill... where the X is X and the Y is Y and the Z goes up and down like it ought to .

A couple things to be clear -

1) It is perfectly fine to not know how to do something and ask for help. It is another thing to proclaim something is broken (canned cycle / machine /etc) when you don't understand how it works. (OP didn't know where/how to use offset for the tools).

2) I seriously doubt the control was "adding or subtracting" anything. I think OP doesn't understand how threading (in general) works, or he wouldn't have kept repeating the minor diameter being "too big", and instead could have given a number / dimension from pitch mics or thread wires, or even a "this 1/2-13 nut won't even start!"....

Originally Posted by G00 Proto

Just for future reference, if I ever have any lathe questions, please be forewarned that I am indeed a complete idiot when it comes to running a CNC lathe. I have them and I hate them... I lost interest in making round parts when I got tired of making fake turds out of clay in grade school art class .

I think I would have been confused as well if the Haas canned cycle added .035" to the wear offset in order to mandate sneaking up on the dimension. Not saying it is a bad idea, just a bit confusing.

Back to setting up a mill... where the X is X and the Y is Y and the Z goes up and down like it ought to .

Doing mainly Swiss work, I get the best of both worlds, all in a tiny enclosure that even my 5'3" self has trouble working in some days.

Swiss motto: Anything you can do, we can do smaller.

Originally Posted by G00 Proto

Back to setting up a mill... where the X is X and the Y is Y and the Z goes up and down like it ought to .

Get a VTL!

Originally Posted by TeachMePlease

Doing mainly Swiss work, I get the best of both worlds, all in a tiny enclosure that even my 5'3" self has trouble working in some days.

Swiss motto: Anything you can do, we can do smaller.

haha that's funny! The thing with those damn things is everything is tiny, little door, little window, little tools/screws....

We have also had this issue on our HAAS TL2. I'm completely new to cnc lathe work. I've run manual lathes for years and VMC's. I was getting around this by fudging the numbers in VPS. I have not used wear offsets and wasn't aware of their existance. I talked to the applications guys from haas about this issue at one point and no mention of adjusting the wear offsets until it cuts the threads correctly. I guess I just didn't notice them either. With other turning operations, I've just adjusted the tool offsets. What's the difference between adjust the tools offsets and using the wear offsets?

Originally Posted by Griffin

We have also had this issue on our HAAS TL2. I'm completely new to cnc lathe work. I've run manual lathes for years and VMC's. I was getting around this by gudging the numbers in VPS. I have not used wear offsets and wasn't aware of their existance. I talked to the applications guys from haas about this issue at one point and no mention of adjusting the wear offsets until it cuts the threads correctly. I guess I just didn't notice them either. With other turning operations, I've just adjusted the tool offsets. What's the difference between adjust the tools offsets and using the wear offsets?

Technically, nothing, they will both adjust where the tool is cutting.
BUT if you use the wear offset you can track tool wear. So if for example you are adjusting your tool offset a couple thou to dial in your part, then adjust it a little more as the tool wears, now you have a number that is say .005" different from where you touched the tool off. So, unless you wrote the original number down, when you change an insert you're likely to cut the next part undersize as now your tool offset is not really correct. If you are using the wear offset it is much eaasier to see the .005" difference, and take that back to zero, or +.002 (on your new insert for example) and cut and check. It's just easier to track and manage IMO.

And it is better to get into this habit at the beginning because most people program mills using wear comp (where the cam uses your tool diameter +/- a wear value to get to size) and you have to use the wear comp page as the tool offset is just a Z value, so you need to put in a value in the wear comp offset to get your parts to size.

Like the Haas guy said, get the tool cutting to size with offsets. Now, as the tool wears adjust using wear offset to keep it in tol. When you switch to a fresh edge zero out wear and start all over.

Thanks. That makes sense. I previously never tried to scroll right on the tool offset page. There's a bunch more stuff over there. I'll definitely try the wear offsets for the threading tool. With general turning so often I end up swapping out inserts in holders due to the wide variety of stuff we do. I turned some 4140 ht today but also turned some 6061. Perhaps I should buy some more holders instead.

1/2-13 2A
Major
max: .4985
min: .4931

PD
High: .4485
Low: .4435

Minor
Max: .4152
Min (ref): .3936


Haas code:

Ttttt
G54
G50 S1000
G00 G99 G94 G97 Sssss M03
G00 X1.0 Z0.3 (why be close to the part? Give it room in X & Z, to let the chip fall off)
G76 X.4045 Z-z.zzz K0.047 F0.0769 D0.012 A60 P1. (<--- P1- P4, your choice)
G80
G00 Xx.xxx
Zz.zzz
M05
M30


Modify what you need. The PD will need to be tweaked for your specific insert.
The Pitch Dia, Major, Thread Form, 60° angle, & Lead are the IMPORTANT ones to measure.
The minor is worthless.
Also, get used to thread wires, thread mic's, & ring gages.



Doug.


ETA: Ah f' it! The question has been answered many times.....

Originally Posted by doug925

1/2-13 2A
Major
max: .4985
min: .4931

PD
High: .4485
Low: .4435

Minor
Max: .4152
Min (ref): .3936


Haas code:

Ttttt
G54
G50 S1000
G00 G99 G94 G97 Sssss M03
G00 X1.0 Z0.3 (why be close to the part? Give it room in X & Z, to let the chip fall off)
G76 X.4045 Z-z.zzz K0.047 F0.0769 D0.012 A60 P1. (<--- P1- P4, your choice)
G80
G00 Xx.xxx
Zz.zzz
M05
M30


Modify what you need. The PD will need to be tweaked for your specific insert.
The Pitch Dia, Major, Thread Form, 60° angle, & Lead are the IMPORTANT ones to measure.
The minor is worthless.
Also, get used to thread wires, thread mic's, & ring gages.



Doug.


ETA: Ah f' it! The question has been answered many times.....

Thank you! Ya, problem is solved but hey, worth repeating for anyone else that might search this problem/

I have a stupid question... like I said, I'm not a lathe guy. If you wrote a toolpath using Haas canned cycles that threaded, and then turned the OD using the same tool would there be a disparity between the OD and the Minor Diameter as the original poster recognized? If so, that's kind of screwy for my squirrel brain.

Originally Posted by G00 Proto

I have a stupid question... like I said, I'm not a lathe guy. If you wrote a toolpath using Haas canned cycles that threaded, and then turned the OD using the same tool would there be a disparity between the OD and the Minor Diameter as the original poster recognized? If so, that's kind of screwy for my squirrel brain.

I think I understand what your getting at.
if you use the threading tool to turn the o.d at lets say .500 and then use the canned cycle and the same tool to cut your thread. the minor dia would be what you programmed in.

HOWEVER you have to adjust your minor dia in the program to get your pitch dia correct. if you used a offset it would make your O.D. either bigger or smaller.
A thread is measured on PD ie pitch dia which is on the angles -V-. depending what rad you have on the bottom part of the V threading insert is the reason why you have to adjust.

another way to better understand it is take a sharp 60 degree angled tool touch it off on a lathe in the x dia, then take that tool and file the tip off touch the part again and you will see the difference. so lets say you had a .010 difference if you cut that thread with the sharp tool then cut another thread with the tip filed off and not changing any dias or re touching off you tool. the Pitch dia -V- would be the exact same however the O.D. and the thread Minor would be bigger on the ground off tipped tool.

hope that explains it

I've been pondering something reading this thread. Is there a formula, calculator etc. to determine the actual depth a thread would need to be cut to given a certain threading insert (tip radius etc.)?

In my experience you program to the nominal minor diameter, knowing you will need to either adjust the X value in the thread cycle, tool wear page etc. to get the PD to check right. Both CAM systems I have used (Solidcam and Mastercam) replicate this fairly well, like the default target X is usually close to the minor diameter (or tap drill size).

Or for an ID thread, it's usually the nominal major diameter.

So I wonder if there's a way to try to cut through all that. Especially as the coarser the thread is, typically requires larger offset changes depending on the tool being used. I suppose it could be drawn out in CAD or something, and perhaps there are too many variables for a formula or calculator to exist.

Originally Posted by Job Shopper TN

I've been pondering something reading this thread. Is there a formula, calculator etc. to determine the actual depth a thread would need to be cut to given a certain threading insert (tip radius etc.)?

In my experience you program to the nominal minor diameter, knowing you will need to either adjust the X value in the thread cycle, tool wear page etc. to get the PD to check right. Both CAM systems I have used (Solidcam and Mastercam) replicate this fairly well, like the default target X is usually close to the minor diameter (or tap drill size).

Or for an ID thread, it's usually the nominal major diameter.

So I wonder if there's a way to try to cut through all that. Especially as the coarser the thread is, typically requires larger offset changes depending on the tool being used. I suppose it could be drawn out in CAD or something, and perhaps there are too many variables for a formula or calculator to exist.

I don't know... I doubt there is anything reliable enough that I would use it. That said, I don't do much lathe work anymore. If I did, maybe just make a chart with some guidelines...