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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ranchak View Post
    Roughing 450 SFM, 0.002 IPM, 0.07" DOC, 0.050" Left for finishing
    Finishing 550 SFM, .0025 IPM

    Coolant is 585XT, concentration at 12%

    I have no idea of the hardness of the material. It's 4140. Unless I take a large depth of cut and push it hard it just smears.
    Even if that was 4140PHT (28-32rc) your SFPM is pretty low.
    We rough at 800sfpm,.150" d.o.c per side with a .014"-.016" ipr, and finish around 1000 sfpm leaving .01" per side and feeding .006"-.01" ipr.
    Usually we're using a .0156" or a .0313" rad insert for finishing. We almost never use a .004" for finishing the entire od unless it's a short length and needs that rad in a corner.

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  3. #22
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    I'm going to try a larger nose radius and see how that does. I'll then start to bump up my sfm. Thanks for all of the suggestions

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    Man, it just seems like everything about this is wrong. Your material is 1-1/8" Diameter. Less than 3xD for stickout…

    CCGT for roughing?
    .004" Radius?
    .002" to .0025" feed?

    Unless you're turning that bar down to a needle, why on earth would you use a positive-shape insert, with a ground chip-breaker, and the smallest nose radius imagineable on this material? These must take forever to run...

    Buy a CNMG 432/431 with a medium chip-breaker, in a P20 steel grade, and let'er rip man!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    Even if that was 4140PHT (28-32rc) your SFPM is pretty low.
    We rough at 800sfpm,.150" d.o.c per side with a .014"-.016" ipr, and finish around 1000 sfpm leaving .01" per side and feeding .006"-.01" ipr.
    Usually we're using a .0156" or a .0313" rad insert for finishing. We almost never use a .004" for finishing the entire od unless it's a short length and needs that rad in a corner.
    Don't you run an Okuma? You should try one of the LNMX -.047R inserts, if you are removing lots of mat'l. We could get your almost exact rough specs in a Haas*, except feed .02-.022", .03" for facing. Same things (minus facing) for a 1.5" LNMX insert boring bar.

    * Actually salesman had me start with .03"rev and .25doc... that didn't work

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    Man, it just seems like everything about this is wrong. Your material is 1-1/8" Diameter. Less than 3xD for stickout…

    CCGT for roughing?
    .004" Radius?
    .002" to .0025" feed?

    Unless you're turning that bar down to a needle, why on earth would you use a positive-shape insert, with a ground chip-breaker, and the smallest nose radius imagineable on this material? These must take forever to run...

    Buy a CNMG 432/431 with a medium chip-breaker, in a P20 steel grade, and let'er rip man!
    Just quoting it so you read it twice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Don't you run an Okuma? You should try one of the LNMX -.047R inserts, if you are removing lots of mat'l. We could get your almost exact rough specs in a Haas*, except feed .02-.022", .03" for facing. Same things (minus facing) for a 1.5" LNMX insert boring bar.

    * Actually salesman had me start with .03"rev and .25doc... that didn't work
    Yes we have 4 Okuma lathes, 3 older mori lathes, an ancient Haas that refuses to die, and a newer Mazak that collects dust.
    I was on lathes for 15 years before I made the move to cnc mills 16 yrs ago.
    And I'm still a lathe guy at heart,but I find the mills more fun.

    I've seen those LNMX inserts before, are they Iscar exclusive? We're almost exclusively a Sandvik shop for lathe tooling since we get such a great discount. (50%-ish)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    Yes we have 4 Okuma lathes, 3 older mori lathes, an ancient Haas that refuses to die, and a newer Mazak that collects dust.
    I was on lathes for 15 years before I made the move to cnc mills 16 yrs ago.
    And I'm still a lathe guy at heart,but I find the mills more fun.

    I've seen those LNMX inserts before, are they Iscar exclusive? We're almost exclusively a Sandvik shop for lathe tooling since we get such a great discount. (50%-ish)
    I don't know, quick googlefu just shows iscar, but i thought we had them in tungalloy... (hmm..?) ... I remember having a different rep at a different job having that style of insert, but not screw mounting, it was a cam type deal....

    Well worth the investment IMO if your job will try new stuff. These were pretty badass, lots o' stock removal, good life, large corner radius for roughing, no catastrophic failures that I remember, they just kind of wore out....

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    Default lnmx vs cnmg vs..?

    I would like to add, and maybe this is opinion, or maybe a difference in cutting tool geo these days...

    I do remember our LNMX tools (boring bar and OD tool) were from a different supplier than most of our other stuff. We had a rep come in (2 actually) trying to get that business from us (LNMX inserts). They *said* they could match our OD turning with a cnmg- ok fine, here are our numbers... (show them a cut in the machine)... they dig thru their book, different grades, rads, holders, and finally say "no we can't do that reliably" (mind you machine was running the whole time throwing nickels at the door. ) I think they might have matched doc and feed, but not tool life, or tool wear/reliability (big boom on sudden failure..) ? I dunno...

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    My shop recently switched to Tungaloy, from Iscar IC907. For the VNMG CNMG DNMG. Hopefully I have those right. I think we use either a 640 or 604 grade insert from them. I'm not sure on what chipbreaker as I've seen a few different. It's kinda a work with what is given. Way better tool life, in both 431 and 432 sizes. (what we use) I'm not 100% sure if it is or isn't, but I think we're somehow running a VNMG 432 Tungaloy at .013" ipr and getting great tool life. 316 SS, no idea about DOC though. Max 274 SFM, most is probably in the 200 area. I wish I could program myself, to push these inserts. I never really agree with the feeds and speeds that are used, but it's not my program and people get offended if I try and change things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I would like to add, and maybe this is opinion, or maybe a difference in cutting tool geo these days...

    I do remember our LNMX tools (boring bar and OD tool) were from a different supplier than most of our other stuff. We had a rep come in (2 actually) trying to get that business from us (LNMX inserts). They *said* they could match our OD turning with a cnmg- ok fine, here are our numbers... (show them a cut in the machine)... they dig thru their book, different grades, rads, holders, and finally say "no we can't do that reliably" (mind you machine was running the whole time throwing nickels at the door. ) I think they might have matched doc and feed, but not tool life, or tool wear/reliability (big boom on sudden failure..) ? I dunno...
    We've discussed this before, but it's always interesting - your experience with LNMX vs CNMG is completely opposite to mine. For me, LNMX could exceed the MMR of CNMG (not by much), but at the expense of seriously reduced reliability. ISTR the last time we discussed this we marked it down to material and machine differences.

    I've also noted that our Tungaloy rep does not ever mention LNMX anymore, even though I was not overly critical of them to him. I suspect that he has experienced the same thing at other customers. I will try and remember to ask him next time I see him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    We've discussed this before, but it's always interesting - your experience with LNMX vs CNMG is completely opposite to mine. For me, LNMX could exceed the MMR of CNMG (not by much), but at the expense of seriously reduced reliability. ISTR the last time we discussed this we marked it down to material and machine differences.

    I've also noted that our Tungaloy rep does not ever mention LNMX anymore, even though I was not overly critical of them to him. I suspect that he has experienced the same thing at other customers. I will try and remember to ask him next time I see him.
    I wonder if you had a bad holder with a faulty insert pocket, or a drastically different grade...? I dunno. I've never tried to (personally) push a cnmg to those specs, but I have heard people doing it but not sure how insert life compares...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I wonder if you had a bad holder with a faulty insert pocket, or a drastically different grade...? I dunno. I've never tried to (personally) push a cnmg to those specs, but I have heard people doing it but not sure how insert life compares...
    I still have a couple of boxes of the inserts left - they are LNMX160616L-TDR grade T9115. I had quite a few holders, so I don't think they were at fault.

    We were running 5mm DOC, single pass on 150mm forged bar, grade 817M40T (equivalent to 4340 quenched and tempered). I can't recall the surface speed we were running but I was having trouble getting the LNMX to break a chip unless we really maxed the feedrate, so we were running 1mm/r feed.

    Failure mode was sudden edge failure, which with the fast cutting data usually resulted in the insert being ripped out of the holder before the operator could stop it, ruining the holder.

    CNMG was same DOC and surface speed, but 0.7mm/r feed, so cycle time was slightly longer, but there were no reliability issues.

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    I tried those LNMX holders a few years ago. Problem was, our parts (forgings) started out around 1.7", so our first cut was around 1.5" diameter. At the feeds they wanted us to run, somewhere around .024-.030"/rev, it was terrible. Terrible sound, terrible chatter. I think it has a lot to do with the helix angle being generated, front angle clearance, etc... I pretty much had to call it off, as there was no way it would last cutting the way it did.

    I wouldn't mind trying them again in a big bar-stock job. (If we had them.)

    I think it's a novel idea, but really all a LNMX/WNMX/CNMX insert is, is a heavy chipbreaker with a curved topography. You can easily get that on a CNMM style insert where there's no requirement for the insert to be double-sided. (They don't have to worry about keeping the flat bearing surface, and the chip-breaker on the same surface so that it can be flipped over & used on the other side...)

    That said, I'm a big fan of CNMG inserts with a big, fat, wide bearing surface on top. That means you get a lot of security between the inserts & the shim-seat. Seco M5, Walter RP5 & RP7 are good at that. Any of those inserts in a P10-P05 grade - (Seco M5 TP0501, Walter RP5/RP7 WPP10S/WPP05S) will be absolute monsters in 4140 or other alloy/tool steel.

    And remember, if you want more speed, you can always bring in cast-iron grades which are usually a little harder/more wear-resistant.

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    Have you made sure your dead on center? Are you getting chatter? Are you using the largest radius possible? How do your chips look?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    I tried those LNMX holders a few years ago. Problem was, our parts (forgings) started out around 1.7", so our first cut was around 1.5" diameter. At the feeds they wanted us to run, somewhere around .024-.030"/rev, it was terrible. Terrible sound, terrible chatter. I think it has a lot to do with the helix angle being generated, front angle clearance, etc... I pretty much had to call it off, as there was no way it would last cutting the way it did.

    I wouldn't mind trying them again in a big bar-stock job. (If we had them.)

    I think it's a novel idea, but really all a LNMX/WNMX/CNMX insert is, is a heavy chipbreaker with a curved topography. You can easily get that on a CNMM style insert where there's no requirement for the insert to be double-sided. (They don't have to worry about keeping the flat bearing surface, and the chip-breaker on the same surface so that it can be flipped over & used on the other side...)

    That said, I'm a big fan of CNMG inserts with a big, fat, wide bearing surface on top. That means you get a lot of security between the inserts & the shim-seat. Seco M5, Walter RP5 & RP7 are good at that. Any of those inserts in a P10-P05 grade - (Seco M5 TP0501, Walter RP5/RP7 WPP10S/WPP05S) will be absolute monsters in 4140 or other alloy/tool steel.

    And remember, if you want more speed, you can always bring in cast-iron grades which are usually a little harder/more wear-resistant.
    They are also tangetial (sp?) so there is a lot of carbide under the cutting edge.

    They make some that don't have the big chipbreaker as well

    lnmx insert - Google Search

    Good point about smaller stock, might not work nearly as well. We were using them on stuff that was mostly 10" dia plus so not removing alot of materail on face or OD with the OD tool, but a crap ton of materiel on the boring/ID which was also an lnmx insert.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ranchak View Post
    Unless I take a large depth of cut and push it hard it just smears.
    There's your answer. The edge prep is not correct for that small depth of cut. The material is piling up on the cutting edge and causing premature failure and poor finish. If the chip is not thick enough to carry the heat away it will stay in the edge of the tool. As others have suggested, try a .031 radius, or at the very least an .016 rad. If you feed 25-30% of the corner rad it should leave an acceptable finish. Also, consider trying Tungaloy's NS530 cermet grade, or an updated coated version. It's been a winner for 20 years.

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