the art of going fast: Brother Speedio vs Doosan SVM
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    Default the art of going fast: Brother Speedio vs Doosan SVM

    Hey all, Iíve got a project thatís finally grown big enough to merit its own machine, making bulk small parts in aluminum, plastic, sometimes wood.

    Long story short, I need to go FAST. Mostly for fun, Iíll admit.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on the tried-and-true-and-fast Brother Speedio versus the new Doosan SVM4100? Thanks!
    Last edited by PrisaPrisa; 09-28-2021 at 02:54 PM. Reason: typos and more info

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    From the promo videos and specs it doesn't look like the Doosan comes close to Brother speed. And only 12k rpm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrisaPrisa View Post
    Hey all, I’ve got a project that’s finally grown big enough to merit its own machine, making bulk small parts in aluminum, plastic, sometimes wood.

    Long story short, I need to go FAST. Mostly for fun, I’ll admit.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on the tried-and-true-and-fast Brother Speedio versus the new Doosan SVM4100? Thanks!
    If you want fast and you want to have fun, Brother. I am biased but I am sure there are plenty of owners/users here that would agree. Also, you hit it with tried and true. Over 200,000 installations. Brother has been at the fast thing for over 35 years. They only build 30 taper, fast, vertical, compact machining centers engineered from the ground up to perform and they strive to make the best possible. They also use these machines to make parts for their other successful product lines, sewing/embroidery machines, printers, gearmotors and reducers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrisaPrisa View Post
    Long story short, I need to go FAST. Mostly for fun, I’ll admit.
    Are you sure ? Results of the tiniest mistake can be ugly.


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    Oooh! Kenny Roberts at Laguna Seca! Thanks for posting that.

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    The editing for the SVM4100 promo videos is annoying. They are constantly going into slomo to show chips flying, or speeding it up. It may be an awesome machine, but you can't tell anything by watching those. Those crummy Brother videos at least stay the same play speed all the way through; you can tell they aren't moving fast on the big face mill, then rip through the drill/tap cycles and small milling features.

    If your parts can benefit from the Big Plus Cat 40 (as in long stick out tools, or hogging with big insert mills) then maybe the Doosan has a chance. But from your description ("making bulk small parts in aluminum, plastic, sometimes wood") Brother will be tough to beat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOTT View Post
    The editing for the SVM4100 promo videos is annoying. They are constantly going into slomo to show chips flying, or speeding it up. It may be an awesome machine, but you can't tell anything by watching those.
    Oh tell me about it... drives me nuts!

    The way I see it, market your stuff as-is because thatís how people are gonna buy it, crummy video quality or otherwise.

    Definitely leaning towards the Brother Ė that 27k spindle is calling my name Ė though Iíve had a tough time getting a response from both Ellison and Yamazen reps (or maybe Iím excited and impatient, time will tell).

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    Are you looking into automation systems to feed the machine to keep it cutting? I'm always blown away by how quick the cycle time is on some parts, then quickly notice how much time I spend swapping out parts for fresh stock. Given that I make 10s to 100s at a time and I get frustrated with loading time, with bulk quantities, you may pay off a robot quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Oooh! Kenny Roberts at Laguna Seca! Thanks for posting that.
    It's the old track, too ... high speed and dangerous. KR always did good there. But Rayborn won the first one

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    If you want to go fast, there is only one choice:

    Speedio G01 Feed Transitions - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike RzMachine View Post
    Are you looking into automation systems to feed the machine to keep it cutting? I'm always blown away by how quick the cycle time is on some parts, then quickly notice how much time I spend swapping out parts for fresh stock. Given that I make 10s to 100s at a time and I get frustrated with loading time, with bulk quantities, you may pay off a robot quickly.
    Yes and no, I'd love to work with robotics in the future but as of right now I'm a uni student with a niche product and limited funds. If I manage to get some job shop work in the door (no clue how to put myself out there...), a robot will be high up on the priority list.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    If you want to go fast, there is only one choice:

    Speedio G01 Feed Transitions - YouTube
    No freaking way... my part happens to have some 200+ linking moves, this will work wonders. Thanks!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    If you want to go fast, there is only one choice:
    A lot of this stuff cracks me up because I bet nine times out of ten, OP will get his per-part time down to .37 seconds, then three boxes of parts will sit by the door for two days waiting for UPS to get them, or someone to deburr the parts, or whatever.

    Total throughput counts more than part time and it's generally a hell of a lot cheaper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    If you want to go fast, there is only one choice:

    Speedio G01 Feed Transitions - YouTube
    Look at the severe position error on those holes at the end. You can even see the drill flexing like crazy when it's running.

    I guess that using tangent arc transitions in this manner requires a bit more Z clearance than linear rapids because of corner rounding.

    Or maybe it's just programmed badly

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    A lot of this stuff cracks me up because I bet nine times out of ten, OP will get his per-part time down to .37 seconds, then three boxes of parts will sit by the door for two days waiting for UPS to get them, or someone to deburr the parts, or whatever.

    Total throughput counts more than part time and it's generally a hell of a lot cheaper.
    What?

    Invoice goes out when the parts are finished, and the next job goes in the machine. If the boxes pile up at the door that's a different problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post



    What?

    Invoice goes out when the parts are finished, and the next job goes in the machine. If the boxes pile up at the door that's a different problem.
    I'd like to think Eggy is on the windup....

    Had a bus partner that (initially) never worried about cycle times. "As long as all the machines are running that's what counts" and his default programming feeds were F1000 for roughing where we could be running at F5000.
    Caused a lot of agg so I revised the jobs and demanded (sounds worse than it was) that all jobs we 'grammed to be made as "fast as possible" (tool library database known proven feeds), and then it was how we scheduled those jobs that allowed all the machines to efficiently run.
    ie don't set 3x jobs that only have a <5 mins cycle together....Have one machine with a <5 mins running, another with a 10 mins, another with a 20 mins etc. Then multi manning is easy.
    Last edited by barbter; 09-29-2021 at 10:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    Look at the severe position error on those holes at the end. You can even see the drill flexing like crazy when it's running.

    I guess that using tangent arc transitions in this manner requires a bit more Z clearance than linear rapids because of corner rounding.

    Or maybe it's just programmed badly
    Wait, this was about being fast... Nobody said anything about accuracy!

    The positional accuracy of these holes are bad, but not as bad as it looks in the video because of the burrs. In reality, we're talking +/- 0.005". Would I use this to do the air bleed holes on a turbine blade? No.

    The application I am developing for is a customer who needs to add a grippy dimpled texture to a product. The original plan was to laser this texture in, but the laser time is way longer than originally expected, and the heat effected zone is making it impossible to anodize. If we can do the grip texture in-cycle, there is a huge cost savings to be had. +/- 0.005" is sloppy, but has a value in the low 6 figures annually. So this works, but we need to get the custom drills in to see what the finished product is like.

    If I lift the clearance plane, I get most of the accuracy back at the cost of abut 2 seconds. If I turn on High Accuracy, I get to G00 transition accuracy, at a hit of about 12 seconds. G00 moves are so accurate because each G00 line (or transition to/from G00) has an exact stop check. On a hole transition, that is 4 exact stops, of which only 1 the move to the XY position) is really necessary. If it futz with my post, I'm thinking to throw a G09 on the same line where I change the feed rate from F800 to F50.

    The reason the Speedio is so amazing for this kind of work, is that I have the flexibility to throw all these tricks at it. Not a Haas or a DMG or even a Robodrill has the flexibility to do the things a Speedio does to let me balance speed and accuracy as I need. Here is one interesting example:

    On the Fly Accuracy - YouTube

    In this video, we have a simple square with arc corners. The far corners are being machined with roughing level accuracy, the near corners have high-finish accuracy accel applied. I don't know of any other control in the world that lets you do a trick like that on a cut contour without having to stop all motion to reset the look ahed pipeline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Wait, this was about being fast... Nobody said anything about accuracy!

    The positional accuracy of these holes are bad, but not as bad as it looks in the video because of the burrs. In reality, we're talking +/- 0.005". Would I use this to do the air bleed holes on a turbine blade? No.

    The application I am developing for is a customer who needs to add a grippy dimpled texture to a product. The original plan was to laser this texture in, but the laser time is way longer than originally expected, and the heat effected zone is making it impossible to anodize. If we can do the grip texture in-cycle, there is a huge cost savings to be had. +/- 0.005" is sloppy, but has a value in the low 6 figures annually. So this works, but we need to get the custom drills in to see what the finished product is like.

    If I lift the clearance plane, I get most of the accuracy back at the cost of abut 2 seconds. If I turn on High Accuracy, I get to G00 transition accuracy, at a hit of about 12 seconds. G00 moves are so accurate because each G00 line (or transition to/from G00) has an exact stop check. On a hole transition, that is 4 exact stops, of which only 1 the move to the XY position) is really necessary. If it futz with my post, I'm thinking to throw a G09 on the same line where I change the feed rate from F800 to F50.

    The reason the Speedio is so amazing for this kind of work, is that I have the flexibility to throw all these tricks at it. Not a Haas or a DMG or even a Robodrill has the flexibility to do the things a Speedio does to let me balance speed and accuracy as I need. Here is one interesting example:

    On the Fly Accuracy - YouTube

    In this video, we have a simple square with arc corners. The far corners are being machined with roughing level accuracy, the near corners have high-finish accuracy accel applied. I don't know of any other control in the world that lets you do a trick like that on a cut contour without having to stop all motion to reset the look ahed pipeline.
    Let's be honest, you probably aren't putting air bleed holes in a turbine blade in a vmc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrisaPrisa View Post
    Hey all, I’ve got a project that’s finally grown big enough to merit its own machine, making bulk small parts in aluminum, plastic, sometimes wood.

    Long story short, I need to go FAST. Mostly for fun, I’ll admit.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on the tried-and-true-and-fast Brother Speedio versus the new Doosan SVM4100? Thanks!
    I'd say the Brother is the better of the two. The Doosan SVM looks like it's some kind of "answer" to the Brother, but it forgot what the question was...
    It's a little short on RPM, and its speeds and cutting ability are not up to Speedio's as well. It does have a 50hp spindle motor - according to the ad copy - but I would think that it could use more processing capability. That said, I'd wait to get my hands on one before passing it off, but it sure looks like the Brother is a tough act to follow for those specs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrisaPrisa View Post
    Oh tell me about it... drives me nuts!

    The way I see it, market your stuff as-is because thatís how people are gonna buy it, crummy video quality or otherwise.

    Definitely leaning towards the Brother Ė that 27k spindle is calling my name Ė though Iíve had a tough time getting a response from both Ellison and Yamazen reps (or maybe Iím excited and impatient, time will tell).
    Message brother frank and ask if he can get a salesman in contact with you quickly. Iím sure he could.

    Have cash in hand and you could probably have the machine in a couple weeks. We had ours in 3 days from purchasing running in 6 days from first messaging brother frank.

    The 27k spindle has been great so far. I hear it does not like to be crashed though so be gentle. One downside to the 27k spindle is it does not have dual contact or through spindle coolant available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    The 27k spindle has been great so far. I hear it does not like to be crashed though so be gentle. One downside to the 27k spindle is it does not have dual contact or through spindle coolant available.
    Ah, didn't know Big Plus wasn't an option on the 27k... depending on the price for the 27k I might opt for the standard spindle and use TSA to power a turbine tool, any thoughts on that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    Message brother frank and ask if he can get a salesman in contact with you quickly. Iím sure he could.

    Have cash in hand and you could probably have the machine in a couple weeks. We had ours in 3 days from purchasing running in 6 days from first messaging brother frank.

    The 27k spindle has been great so far. I hear it does not like to be crashed though so be gentle. One downside to the 27k spindle is it does not have dual contact or through spindle coolant available.
    You beat me to it Ian! Anyone can message me anytime and I will be happy to assist any way I can. A couple of things about 27K spindles (one of my favorites), Big Plus is available and they are more rugged than you would think. Out of the 30 plus that I have installed out here, only one has had the spindle replaced and none have Big Plus. One of my clients runs his 5 particularly hard. He has robots loading them about 140 hours a week and he has a 5/8 end mill ripping aluminum off. The one spindle that got replaced was at another shop that had a misloaded part and a 2.5" facemill got in a fight with it....

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