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  1. #61
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    Depending on budget and capabilities needed Doosan has some great 5 axis stuff. From a low cost "4+1" VMC to a full blown huge 5 axis. Everything in between too. Pallet loaders, large magazines, full contact spindles, choice of controls. All at a great "bang for you buck" price.

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    Default Hmc?

    Why not a horizontal? We recently purchased a Kitamura with a KME tombstone (with lang QC and dovetail jaws) and a new Orange tombstone (flexible design for holding a wide range of prismatic parts) for a similar situation (prototype/small volume, small 3+2 parts) based on information read here and from conversations with a few people that post here (thanks!), visits to a few shops that were doing low vol/high variety production on horizontals.

    This machine accommodates post installation pallet and tool upgrades as the budget allows. Haven't cut any parts on the KME yet, so can't really say much here. The reference customers I contacted were most positive about the KME. We went this direction over a wired five axis as they can rotate multiple parts, are battery powered (meaning we can swap to another pallet easily) and we didn't need the speed.

    We are still working our way into this machine and will take us a year or two to get it working like you guys do. I don't have much reference to other machining centers as my background is elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    maybe i'm not quite grasping what you mean...
    Attachment 259271

    the window to the right shows the code that its running/simulating real time. to me that means it creates the code and then simulates it. as right in that window is a button to save that code to run it on your machine, exactly as it looks there.
    Your comment is correct. "it creates the code" and then simulates it. This means CAMPlete creates the code, NOT your cam system. I use Powermill, I can create a .H file for the 640 Heidenhain control thru my post processor and there is nothing that CAMPlete can do with it. I cannot check MY .H file. There are others that can, like Vericut, NCSimul and a few others. This is why you can merge several cam programs together with CAMPlete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    We looked long and hard at CAMplete, the problem I have is that fact that it still does not check YOUR posted G-Code, it creates it's own, so in theory, it does no better than a very good cam system like Open Mind's Hypermill that also checks it's own, with their collision checking. CAMplete is great for an applications guy that goes to a shop to set up and do a test cut on a brand new machine and runs some other dudes test program that was created in just any old cam system with a half-assed post processor.
    Well, that would be Vericut, which is universal, or canbe set to each machine you have (so to speak). My understanding is each seat of Camplete is dialed into your machine, your control, etc. So what I used with a Robodrill with a Nikken table, would be almost 'useless' for anything other than that machine and setup (including the riser on the machine). Camplete is supposed to optimize your cam systems toolpaths, do collision checking, check for reversals, tool length interference etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    Your comment is correct. "it creates the code" and then simulates it. This means CAMPlete creates the code, NOT your cam system. I use Powermill, I can create a .H file for the 640 Heidenhain control thru my post processor and there is nothing that CAMPlete can do with it. I cannot check MY .H file. There are others that can, like Vericut, NCSimul and a few others. This is why you can merge several cam programs together with CAMPlete.
    and vericut can simulate the .H file?

    never mind just read your post completely.
    does it matter if camplete creates the code or the cam system itself as long as that code is 100% verified?
    will heidenhain not read normal .nc files?

  8. #66
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    You guys have a lot of faith in software as the solution.
    Of course you can verify toolpaths do collision checking and all that.
    A given and that is the easy part which has been around for a long time.
    Thinking that computer simulation solves the problems has lead to many failures in the industry.
    Show me the simulation program that accounts for tool wear and the difference in chip formation and the problems that occur as this progresses.

    The problems with lights out are not the part program doing what it should.
    It's dust, dirt or probing that may or may not be right. Tools or material differences don't follow the rules in the computer.
    It's the tool/part that 95% of they do what is expected and that 5% of where a human hears or sees that that does not seem right.

    One simple example is sound. Machinists or even button pushers know the correct sound. One knows if you are recutting chips.
    How many machines and controls can do the same?
    Second example probing incoming or measuring. Again if just button pusher and the number is out of expectations you recheck, maybe more than once.
    Does your machine software do this?

    Coding all this into a machine is complicated and done only on big run stuff due to the cost.
    We have a long ways to go.
    Sims are a great tool for finding stupid programming errors. They do expect a perfect world.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    and vericut can simulate the .H file?

    never mind just read your post completely.
    does it matter if camplete creates the code or the cam system itself as long as that code is 100% verified?
    will heidenhain not read normal .nc files?
    I only have my post using the .H files, I believe Heidenhain can read several types of files, but I never had any reason to look into it. I guess what I am trying to say is, it does not really matter where the code comes from as long as it's verified. If you invest in a top notch cam that writes the code and checks the code your good to go. It seems silly to get a third party software to verify code only to spit out it's own. Then you might as well get Vericut and check the file from your cam, that is a true double check. Who is checking CAMPlete's code that they write? That's right, CAMPlete, so it's not really a "check" is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Camplete is supposed to optimize your cam systems toolpaths, do collision checking, check for reversals, tool length interference etc.
    Doesn't a good cam system do this? Powermill does, Hypermill does, Work NC does, Unigraphics does, ect..

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    Doesn't a good cam system do this? Powermill does, Hypermill does, Work NC does, Unigraphics does, ect..
    And then on the control, even HURCO "Ultimotion" changes acc and dec and the trajectory / path … May not be an issue for collision detection ?

    (Personally) that's why the more compute capable and fast processing and block look ahead and high bandwidth controls have the "Final say" . like Heidenhain, MAZAK Smooth X and others...


    Nice thing about the Smooth X (Mazak)




    Good parity and resolution of 3d features / models.






    Overfocus on bumping front face of an integrex B axis milling spindle into soft jaws or sheet metal only to bash the back end of the mill spindle into the counter spindle ?

    There's more in this series of vids etc. related to not trashing machines / simulation / on board usefulness of enhanced 3d (simulation) capability ON the control.


    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________________


    Originally on FANUC control for 5 axis +, only very crude bounding boxes could be supplied to the control for collision detection, that's where Camplete excels. Most folks can't be bothered (back then ) to supply separately defined collision detection models / crude bounding boxes to the Fanuc control.


    Not sure where the on control simulation capability is these days for Fanuc ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    Doesn't a good cam system do this? Powermill does, Hypermill does, Work NC does, Unigraphics does, ect..
    Maybe... at an additional cost (machine sim, kinematics, custom post processors, etc). So it might be a moot point, but I would like to touch on this -

    It seems silly to get a third party software to verify code only to spit out it's own. Then you might as well get Vericut and check the file from your cam, that is a true double check. Who is checking CAMPlete's code that they write? That's right, CAMPlete, so it's not really a "check" is it?

    How do you know Vericut is "right" (sorry I can tell this will be a tangent LoL)..? Camplete isn't verifying G code as you said, it is verifying your toolpath motion and work planes (and I am sure alot of other things too), THEN it is generating code... I'll stop here because I know this could go back and forth and I am not trying to sell anything, or any particular CAD/CAM package...


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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    I only have my post using the .H files, I believe Heidenhain can read several types of files, but I never had any reason to look into it. I guess what I am trying to say is, it does not really matter where the code comes from as long as it's verified. If you invest in a top notch cam that writes the code and checks the code your good to go. It seems silly to get a third party software to verify code only to spit out it's own. Then you might as well get Vericut and check the file from your cam, that is a true double check. Who is checking CAMPlete's code that they write? That's right, CAMPlete, so it's not really a "check" is it?
    we use camplete because it came with our machine, i think if we had to pay for it separately we'd just stick with the cam sim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Maybe... at an additional cost (machine sim, kinematics, custom post processors, etc). So it might be a moot point, but I would like to touch on this -

    It seems silly to get a third party software to verify code only to spit out it's own. Then you might as well get Vericut and check the file from your cam, that is a true double check. Who is checking CAMPlete's code that they write? That's right, CAMPlete, so it's not really a "check" is it?

    How do you know Vericut is "right" (sorry I can tell this will be a tangent LoL)..? Camplete isn't verifying G code as you said, it is verifying your toolpath motion and work planes (and I am sure alot of other things too), THEN it is generating code... I'll stop here because I know this could go back and forth and I am not trying to sell anything, or any particular CAD/CAM package...

    i actually just got off the phone with camplete engineer, he was showing us the ins and outs of the software. yes it imports NCI files and generates code, however the simulation is done off the generated code, NOT the NCI file. so the big difference between vericut and camplete is that you can just feed straight up G code to vericut, vs camplete only being able to verify its own generated G code.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    we use camplete because it came with our machine, i think if we had to pay for it separately we'd just stick with the cam sim

    Hey that's pretty cool RE: Software (esp. Camplete) with a second hand machine...

    I had a 'crack " at a second hand MX -520 a while back and that was my concern was the inability to score a Camplete license for that machine.

    The second hand dealer (good 'peeps' ) was not really able to dig into the licensing capability of Camplete in that situation.

    In the "Olden days" (more generally) one used to be able to transfer and sign over a software license.

    __________________________________________________ ____



    @empwoer How did you guys get a free license of Camplete for a second hand machine ?

    On an older Fanuc control'd machine Camplete seems very helpful (to gain confidence and not trash a machine so you can proceed faster with things when initially trying to get a handle on things ). But I agree the stand alone price for Camplete is not trivial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Maybe... at an additional cost (machine sim, kinematics, custom post processors, etc). So it might be a moot point, but I would like to touch on this -

    It seems silly to get a third party software to verify code only to spit out it's own. Then you might as well get Vericut and check the file from your cam, that is a true double check. Who is checking CAMPlete's code that they write? That's right, CAMPlete, so it's not really a "check" is it?

    How do you know Vericut is "right" (sorry I can tell this will be a tangent LoL)..? Camplete isn't verifying G code as you said, it is verifying your toolpath motion and work planes (and I am sure alot of other things too), THEN it is generating code... I'll stop here because I know this could go back and forth and I am not trying to sell anything, or any particular CAD/CAM package...

    We could indeed argue this forever, I don't have any third party simulation so I don't have a horse in this race. My point> Powermill creates my program, Powermill posts and creates my code, powermill simulates it's toolpath motion NOT THE FINAL G-CODE. Send to Vericut, they double check Powermills code, and then run, not sure that it's right, but it's checked. CAMPlete takes Powermills cut file, posts the code with their internal post processor, and they check the final code, so in my opinion, it's not double checked so to speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Hey that's pretty cool RE: Software (esp. Camplete) with a second hand machine...

    I had a 'crack " at a second hand MX -520 a while back and that was my concern was the inability to score a Camplete license for that machine.

    The second hand dealer (good 'peeps' ) was not really able to dig into the licensing capability of Camplete in that situation.

    In the "Olden days" (more generally) one used to be able to transfer and sign over a software license.

    __________________________________________________ ____



    @empwoer How did you guys get a free license of Camplete for a second hand machine ?

    On an older Fanuc control'd machine Camplete seems very helpful (to gain confidence and not trash a machine so you can proceed faster with things when initially trying to get a handle on things ). But I agree the stand alone price for Camplete is not trivial.
    call and ask nicely...

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    call and ask nicely...
    So call Camplete and ask nicely …

    You did mention that they have an LX- type linear machine on their floor. (For testing purposes.).

    So if the Camplete licence came with the machine as an honored functional element of the machine through Matsuura, they were in your case able to issue you a full licensed stand alone (for your machine) copy ?


    Just out of interest are you obliged to pay any annual maintenance / updates for that ? (if you don't mind me asking .).

    Did you offer to report any bugs etc. for the LX-160 implementation/ potentially 'Beta test" ?

    __________________________________________________ ______


    So an average Tom, Dick or Harry that bought second hand an older MX-520 etc. , an individual who is not necessarily inclined to naturally be overly obsequious nor especially cantankerous, can potentially score a Camplete license for their machine if it's serial number corresponds with machines that had "With machine" issued Camplete licenses (through Matsuura)... By picking up the phone ?
    Last edited by cameraman; 06-20-2019 at 07:45 PM.

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    You can't import g-code into camplete to simulate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    So call Camplete and ask nicely …

    You did mention that they have an LX- type linear machine on their floor. (For testing purposes.).

    So if the Camplete licence came with the machine as an honored functional element of the machine through Matsuura, they were in your case able to issue you a full licensed stand alone (for your machine) copy ?


    Just out of interest are you obliged to pay any annual maintenance / updates for that ? (if you don't mind me asking .).

    Did you offer to report any bugs etc. for the LX-160 implementation/ potentially 'Beta test" ?

    __________________________________________________ ______


    So an average Tom, Dick or Harry that bought second hand an older MX-520 etc. , an individual who is not necessarily inclined to naturally be overly obsequious nor especially cantankerous, can potentially score a Camplete license for their machine if it's serial number corresponds with machines that had "With machine" issued Camplete licenses (through Matsuura)... By picking up the phone ?
    we talked to matsuura, and they figured it out with camplete.
    yes, we pay maintenance. the license transferred over from the original owner of the machine.
    in my experience, you are correct on your last statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    we talked to matsuura, and they figured it out with camplete.
    yes, we pay maintenance. the license transferred over from the original owner of the machine.
    in my experience, you are correct on your last statement.


    Definitely good to know for the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    You can't import g-code into camplete to simulate?
    Nope, that is the main concern I have.


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