"Basic" Swiss Lathe

Hey guys, probably a dumb question here but I'd like to hear opinions. Backround- we make our own product line, and do some OEM work for other companies, but almost always our own design. Very rare to get an outside drawing we have to stick with, point being I can design the parts to fit our strengths (within reason). We sub out laser, waterjet, and swiss parts that aren't a good fit for our current live tooled sub-spindle lathe (think small, or long with axial grooves).

For the next machine purchase I would like to get a Swiss lathe, a bunch of our parts are perfect fodder. Everthing is simple, no crazy organic shaped spinal implants or anything like that. 1" diameter and below, mostly 6061 and 304.

Question 1: What makes and models would you look at for a "basic" swiss lathe? No B axis, maybe two or three axial and radial live tools?

Question 2: For used, how old would you go? These being ideal for lights out work even a young used machine tends to have a lot of hours, compared to say a three axis VMC. So what model year and run time hours would you draw the line at?

Question 3: Budget. The goal is a machine that makes parts, not a project, so it may be that we don't have enough use to justify the capital cost at this point and the answer is to keep subbing it out. Used is ok, but I'm not willing to buy and old machine that COULD make good parts. If anyone has dollar figures to share I would be very interested.

I'd buy a used Citizen L20E or L20X. No idea on used price. New price is in the $225-250K range depending on options.

If you get an L20X, you get a Y axis on the sub spindle, which gives you a total of 6 tools on your sub spindle, 3 driven, 3 static, and 8 tools in your 30s block (back working tools), 4 driven, 4 static. If you get an L20E with no Y axis on the sub, you have 3 driven/static tools on your sub spindle and 3 driven/static tools on your back working block.

Both come standard with 5 stick tool stations and 4 cross drilling/milling stations, as well as a dangler which lets you add 3 more tools that can be driven or static, and axial or radial, or at an angle (manually set, not a programmable B).

No real experience with used machines, we only buy new, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy one that was 10 years old and didn't look too beat up. We have machines that have been running more or less non stop for the last 8 years straight that are money makers, as long as you do the regular preventative maintenance, and don't let your operators beat 'em to death. Parts availability is good, service is good. In your area, Adept Machine Tools is the Citizen distributor, I'm sure they could help you find a used machine, they're good people.

You'll want a barfeeder with it, I recommend the Cincom CAV16 since it integrates directly with the control, but an FMB isn't bad either. You'd never catch me spending money on an IEMCA barfeeder if I had a choice, but some people love 'em.

The three most popular brands seem to be Citizen, Tsugami, and Star (in that order). I only have experience with Tsugami and I like them but have heard excellent things about Citizen and mixed reviews on Star (service complaints, mostly) but at the same time know a guy that has over 30 in his shop, so he's happy with them.

A popular "basic" model Tsugami would be a B0205 (20mm) or B0325 (20mm). Both have 4 cross live tools in the front and options for 2 axial live tools in the back (4 static is standard on both.) With a magazine barfeed, the live tools in the back, high pressure coolant, and chip conveyor those will be about $225k and $250k, respectively. I could be wrong, but I believe in order to get axial live tools in the front on a Tsugami you would need to step up to a B0326. The "6" is a 6th axis, which is Y on the back tool post but you also get 3 additional live cross tools in the front that can accept a right angle head of sorts that allows you to drill axially on the front. That machine is more like $300k, though.

I would not be too afraid of a used machine, probably within the past 10 years. The machines typically run oil so that helps with wear and tear.

I happen to just come across a 2014 B0325 with barfeed for $120k, to give you an idea of what is out there.

One thing you should know about swiss machines is if you ever have to make multiple passes in Z the material will be getting sucked back in through the guide bushing (the material moves in Z, not the tools) and there is only so much land on those (~1-2") and trouble can arise if the stock bar diameter looses support on those lands during that Z-axis retraction. There are ways around it but definitely something that needs to be considered.

Good luck!

I'm an idiot, you said 1" material. You can either step up to an L25, or get a large part conversion kit for the L20, which will enable you to run up to 25mm material. No idea what the kit costs from Citizen, but I wouldn't expect it to be too much (probably a couple grand).


Oh, and while I had terrible experiences with Star service, IF you can get service in your area (FIND OUT FIRST), there's nothing wrong with a used Star machine, they're a bit beefier than your average Citizen. The control is standard FANUC-ese and not as intuitive as a Citizen control. Citizen has buttons with pictures, and on newer machines, the controller screen even shows you what will happen when you press a button.

If you've never programmed a Swiss before, it's my personal feeling that the Citizen control is WAY more user friendly.... But everyone's got an opinion, so take mine for what you paid for it.

For reference, here's an L20X demonstrating that useful Y axis. YouTube

Another thing I forgot to mention, the variety of tool holders that you can get for a Citizen is staggering. The price for them is also staggering (think double digit thousands for most of them). However, it's not just the accessories that make a Citizen superior (IMO), it's the fact that they're integrated into the control. Every tool holder has a unique identifier, and you put that into your program, so the machine knows what it's holding.

Like, for example, on one of my machines, I can replace a radial live tool holder with a static holder that has two axial tools. I put that in my Machine Data, and now instead of having T14 as a radial tool, it's an axial tool, and the controller updated to have values for T14 and T14R1 where R1 is the second tool. Instead of having to program with a shift for either tool, I just call the tool and offset I want in the program, and the machine knows where the tooltip of each is. It also knows where that holder is sticking out in space, so it can't crash into itself (unless you do something dumb like turn off the interference check....)

Pull that holder out, put in a driven axial tool with two forward facing tools and two rear facing tools for the sub to use. I now have offsets for T14, T14R1 T54 and T54R1. Want to use the front facing tools to drill a hole on your main spindle while simultaneously reaming a hole on your subspindle at a different feedrate? No problem, there's a G-Code for that.

Want to hob gears? There's a tool and a G-Code for that. Want to drill a hole using the tool on your subspindle while simultaneously turning the OD of the part? There's a G-Code for that. Want them to run at different feedrates? No problem, program both cuts the way you want, the control will do the math on moving the subspindle separately from the main spindle.

I could go on. I'm obviously a Citizen fan boy.

Thanks for the feedback. I have not programmed a swiss before, and expect much gnashing of teeth in the learning process. I have run Fanuc mills and hated every minute, but they worked.

So a 25mm machine will hold 1" material? Wasn't sure how seriously they hold to those sizes, I'd hope an extra .4mm/.015 would fit but those Japs don't mess around.

I'll do some reading on those specific models, and get back on here with some follow-up questions.

Last I checked Citizens are still really limited on memory size, still measured in meters of tape. Have they fixed that yet? How's Tsugami in that regard?

LOTT said:

So a 25mm machine will hold 1" material?

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I would expect the bore to let 1” material through but something I ran into on my Tsugami was when trying to run 1-1/4” material through the 1-1/4” bore the bar feed collet got hung up on the bore opening since it (the bar feed collet) is obviously larger than the bar...maybe by 1/8”? So this means longer remnants unless we open up the bore in the machine or turn the back of the bar down to, say, 1-1/8” and then use a 1-1/8” barfeed collet so it will sneak through the spindle bore.

Teachme might have other input on that scenario, or maybe the 25mm Citizen actually has a larger-than-25mm bore to accommodate the barfeed.

mhajicek said:

Last I checked Citizens are still really limited on memory size, still measured in meters of tape. Have they fixed that yet? How's Tsugami in that regard?

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No idea... We buy 'em decked out, never been a problem. And in those weird cases where we STILL don't have enough memory, you can run from a 2GB compact flash card.

No idea on the large bar thing, I only know that it's possible to buy the kit from Citizen. We have a variety of machines from 12mm to 25mm, we got rid of our 32mm machines as we had no real use for them.

TeachMePlease said:

We have a variety of machines from 12mm to 25mm

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Do you ever run 12mm material in the 12mm machine or 25mm material in the 25mm machine? If so, does the OD of the barfeed collet get snagged on the spindle liner and result in longer remnants or do you turn the ends down to use smaller barfeed collets?

Nerdlinger said:

Do you ever run 12mm material in the 12mm machine or 25mm material in the 25mm machine? If so, does the OD of the barfeed collet get snagged on the spindle liner and result in longer remnants or do you turn the ends down to use smaller barfeed collets?

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I can probably count on one hand the total number of jobs that I have that use stock bigger than 3/8". We don't use the larger machines for their stock capacity, but for the number of tools and other features they offer over smaller/cheaper machines.

I guess "Basic" means different thinks to different people. I had an RFQ for swiss-job on my desk a couple months ago. I could've made the parts on a 2-axis lathe & parted off, so I started doing some research & asked for a quote on such. (2-axis swiss lathe that is...)

I was surprised when I was quoted a sub-spindle swiss, with about 7 more axes than I asked for, at a price that would buy 3-4 Okuma Genos lathes... Apparently, people don't buy "simple" swiss machines any more?

Anyway, we didn't win the job, so that was one headache avoided at the time...

Wow TeachMePlease, you've been keeping your eyes and ears open I see.......

That's a ton of information in a couple of posts.

I just wish we would do the type of work that would justify a Swiss.

Nerdlinger said:

Do you ever run 12mm material in the 12mm machine or 25mm material in the 25mm machine? If so, does the OD of the barfeed collet get snagged on the spindle liner and result in longer remnants or do you turn the ends down to use smaller barfeed collets?

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We have recently bought 2 used Citizens, 1 L25 and 1 L32. Max size is max size, we turn the ends down for a normal bar end. I actually milled them with a live tool in our Mazak. It was alot easier than getting the bar out of the feeder, and by milling it the bar wasn't spinning fast enough to need support. Both ours are mid 90's vintage, and are amazing. Just got them the beginning of the year, so just learning them.

chad883 said:

We have recently bought 2 used Citizens, 1 L25 and 1 L32. ...Both ours are mid 90's vintage, and are amazing. Just got them the beginning of the year, so just learning them.

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So 25 year old machines and still running strong? Is this your first time programming a Citizen and if so how's the learning curve?

Jashley73 said:

I guess "Basic" means different thinks to different people. I had an RFQ for swiss-job on my desk a couple months ago. I could've made the parts on a 2-axis lathe & parted off, so I started doing some research & asked for a quote on such. (2-axis swiss lathe that is...)

I was surprised when I was quoted a sub-spindle swiss, with about 7 more axes than I asked for, at a price that would buy 3-4 Okuma Genos lathes... Apparently, people don't buy "simple" swiss machines any more?

Anyway, we didn't win the job, so that was one headache avoided at the time...

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Yes, I didn't post this for a long time just because of that, it's hard to define "basic". Most parts we make don't need live tools at all, but just about all need a sub to at least face the back side and/or countersink. For most parts a swiss would be perfect if we can find a capability/price combo that can be justified.

ChipSplitter said:

Wow TeachMePlease, you've been keeping your eyes and ears open I see.......

That's a ton of information in a couple of posts.

I just wish we would do the type of work that would justify a Swiss.

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Swiss is what I do, all day, every day. (Sometimes they let me go home and sleep). I've been at this same shop for over 8 years, started as an apprentice, now I do the programming and optimization (not just me, I work on a very talented team).

Yes, still going strong. Had to replace the live tool spindle motor on one. First time programming one, bu ti program 2 Integrex, so I have been using a sub and live tools

chad883 said:

We have recently bought 2 used Citizens, 1 L25 and 1 L32. Max size is max size, we turn the ends down for a normal bar end. I actually milled them with a live tool in our Mazak. It was alot easier than getting the bar out of the feeder, and by milling it the bar wasn't spinning fast enough to need support. Both ours are mid 90's vintage, and are amazing. Just got them the beginning of the year, so just learning them.

Click to expand...

LOTT said:

So 25 year old machines and still running strong? Is this your first time programming a Citizen and if so how's the learning curve?

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I can do a few years better , we have 2 f12's (ones sitting as I havent figured out if I want to buy electronics for it or not, the other has a sub spindle /live tooling etc and works perfectly. its an 1988 I believe could be a 90. Anyhow it holds + or - .0001 all day long, all week long and all month long.
only had one issue with it on finish and that was because the rotating bushing bearings went out. replaced them and its holds a 32-16 finish depending on inserts/material.
I got it for a grand about 5-6 years ago sight unseen. best money making machine in the shop. its sitting now as were bombed with mill work.
the f12 is 12mm however it will turn 1/2 or smaller with no issues. we generally run .250 stock and .032 stock through it.

programing is as simple as running a standard lathe with some minor stuff. just have to remember that you the Z axis is opposite. z plus is into the part Z minus is away from part.

Look into Tsugami's "First on the Floor" program. I bought a B0326-II with some options for around $225k. IIRC the B0325-II started at like $185k WITH a Patriot 338 barfeeder, and it was around $20-25k for the sixth axis on the sub? It's been a minute so I could be off a little. That is cheap for the capability. For barfeeder, go with Edge (whether a Patriot or FMB).

The Tsugamis also come with capable, free software for programming, and have a "Program Check" function standard. That lets you handwheel through a program to check it out (other than sync'd processes like threading, tapping, etc.). They were nice machines on which to learn.

Just know that the B series are built in mainland China these days. You have to go to the SS series to get a Japanese built Tsugami AFAIK.