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Best bang for buck on VMC

Arichat_78

Plastic
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
I work for an Engineering company that is looking to expand our prototyping capabilities. We currently have a Zortrax 3D printer and a small Roland cnc router that is good for prototyping in woods and plastics but not metal. We are ready to invest in a proper CNC mill/machining center that would be suitable for one/two part runs, prototyping and mods. We have a rough budget of ~$25k-$30k. I am a machinist by trade but have been away from actual machining for quite a few years now and I'm a bit out of touch with the brands on the market today. I'm thinking at least 10 tool capacity, ~10k rpm, 30"X15" bed with ~ 20"(x) 15"(y) 15"(z) travel. I was hoping that you guys could throw out some recommendations of a quality machine that wont blow our budget. Any help would be appreciated.

Steve
 
I work for an Engineering company that is looking to expand our prototyping capabilities. We currently have a Zortrax 3D printer and a small Roland cnc router that is good for prototyping in woods and plastics but not metal. We are ready to invest in a proper CNC mill/machining center that would be suitable for one/two part runs, prototyping and mods. We have a rough budget of ~$25k-$30k. I am a machinist by trade but have been away from actual machining for quite a few years now and I'm a bit out of touch with the brands on the market today. I'm thinking at least 10 tool capacity, ~10k rpm, 30"X15" bed with ~ 20"(x) 15"(y) 15"(z) travel. I was hoping that you guys could throw out some recommendations of a quality machine that wont blow our budget. Any help would be appreciated.

Steve

At that price you'll have to go with a used machine.
 
Sorry to say it, you will either be in china conversational mill land, KBC tools here in Canada has many to offer. That would be my last choice, part availability is none existent after 5 years. The other hand there is Tormach, if you watch any of NYCNC videos on youtube, you can see the value in them. Or a used machine, millage before break down will vary.

You describe a proper cnc, your use case doesn't really warrant it and your budget does not support it.
 
Like others have said, the VMC with a tool changer is out of the question for your budget unless you want to look at a used one that may or may not be a good investment depending on the wear and tear on it and your experience with industrial repair.

I don't think you could go wrong with a bed mill. I saw several new bed mills with a travelling z head (not just a short quill travel) priced in the low thirties. Look at Prototrack, Acer, Fryer, and maybe Knuth. I'd guess most of the iron from any of these manufacturers is going to come from Asia, I'd be more concerned with local support staff with a dealer with a history of being in business.
 
You have three options. Two are good.

One is buy something used. 30k for what you are looking for gets you a really nice used machine. I would start poking at VF2s and go from there. There are better machines for the buck, but Haas hold resale value inexplicably well and they are easy to run.

Option 2 is stretch your budget to 45k. At 45 there are lots of pretty good new options.

Option 3 is buy something half-assed new. Bed mills, Chinese conversational machines, tormachs, that sort of thing. All the options here are bad.

You are basically trying to buy a car for $11k. Lots of pretty nice used options. The new options you have at that budget are technically cars, but you will rue the $4k you didn't spend every minute you own it.
 
A used Haas Minimill comes in under budget, and can have the goodies like Renishaw part probing and tool setting, but falls a bit short of the desired travels.
 
Haas TM1 with tool changer can be had for about $35k. You can get a used one for about $20k. I would step up to the one with the full enclosure or you'll go home with wet underwear every night. Not the best or the fastest, but it should get the job done. If you want to run more than a couple of anything, step up to the MUCH faster VF2.
 
"I have no money, and I need a reliable machine"... Go buy a f'n Fadal.. CHEAP to buy... CHEAP to fix...

Same basic machine for fricken ever.. Tons of support from the tons of people that own them and the after market
people that sell parts (and there are quite a few)..

Its not a Mori, Its not a Mazak, its not a rocket.. Its a low dollar Fisher Price machine that they made a ton of... And they
were all basically the same.. They are SIMPLE machines..


The control is drop dead simple with some fantastic utilities.. A 4 year old that can read and follow the instructions on the screen
could set up and run a part (if you got them a stool to stand on)..

A few days (if its your first time doing it) and a few hundred dollars and you are pretty damn close to being back to factory new specs.
They really are that drop dead simple and cheap to fix.
 
Used fadal came to my mind also, but I didn't want to be first.

BANG for the BUCK, its hard to beat..

In the VMC realm.. Fadals are

1)SIMPLE
2)CHEAP
... A) to fix
... B) to buy
3) SUPPORT
... A) Owners, there are a ton of us.
... B) Suppliers, there are quite a few places that supply Fadal parts AND SUPPORT...


Its NEVER going to be a Mazak, its never going to be a Mori.. Its a simple machine.
It will do incredible things for you if its maintained well. It can take a hell of a cut..
It has HORSE power, not Haas Power.. It can be incredibly accurate when maintained properly
(and that's easy).. It will break and need more maintenance than a high end machine, but its cheap
and easy to fix and maintain..

I won't even talk about the control.. I honestly believe the control is one of the best features...

Lost the parameters... Woops.. Did I download them, NOPE.. Did I photograph them, NOPE, did I record them... NOPE..

But I'm up and running in 2 minutes... And that includes HAND ENTERING ALL the parameters again, from memory.. No
Hexadecimal BS, no Binary BS. 3 short pages of Simple questions written in English...

And the utilities are out of this world, and Fadal has had them for 23 years..

I just got another one today, and I'm happier than a pig in shit.

Just shy of 3 of these piles on one single sub $50 half inch endmill in annealed 4340. 11-14 cubic inches in a minute, on a
Fricken Fadal.. A clapped out Fadal that I paid $12k for in 2007. A clapped out Fadal, that I maintained once she got here.
And it didn't cost much or take much time to get her up to speed.

7587539652_7ac4e49779_c.jpg
 
You're not going to get much of a machine for $30k if you buy new. The best deal I've seen recently on a new entry-level VMC was in an email I received earlier this week on Sharp Mini-Mills (which have 24" x 16" travels). The prices ranged from $37k to $45k depending on options.

I don't have any experience with those machines, so I can't comment on the quality.

That being said, I think your best bang for the buck will be on a used machine.
 
You might look at the Tormach mills. Maybe others have experience with them and can chime in. I looked at one while looking for a lathe (tormachs lathe was WAY too small). They seemed like nice cheap machines. I would not use one for production though.

There is a guy on YouTube (NYCNC) that has quite a few videos showing how to use the tormach and fusion 360. He has just recently bought a haas so I do not know if he will still be kicking out tormach videos.
 
BANG for the BUCK, its hard to beat..



7587539652_7ac4e49779_c.jpg
oh yeah, i remember that picture.
(there is a Haas right next to that machine from whence the chip were shoveled into the Fadal for the photo op)
:D:D
 
+100 on the FADAL.

I bought a 1991 4020, 100+toolholders (all in mint shape), TR65 4th/5th axis rotary, probably a 7 out of 10 in terms of condition, under $20k including moving, I could have found one cheaper if I hadn't needed a 4020 NOW! It has the upgraded -4 control, I was 3D contouring at 150ipm a few days ago (DNC'ing using OneCNC DNC), sure you could get other machines that are faster, but for me it's more than adequate. Tool changes will send you to sleep, so you learn pretty quickly to load tools in some kind of order to minimise TC time wasting.

A mint 5020 went for $13k a few months ago locally, I would have bought that in a heart beat if I had known.

The nice thing about the FADAL is if it does anything weird (and it will) I can call a couple of people, and they'll ussually say "I had one that did that, a couple of things to look at are... etc etc"
 
If somebody says buy a HAAS, investigate your local HAAS service center and see what the locals think of them. Some of the recent threads mention poor service, increasing spares prices, machines with old controls that need maybe $10K to upgrade the control when a $300 board dies and can't be replaced.

Again with a FADAL you'll never be held hostage by an unresponsive service provider, or lack of sources of parts/service etc.
 
My 10 tool Robodrill cost less than $15k delivered. Works great. Had to replace LCD for $40. Came with a pallet loader. Fanuc Controls. BT30 Spindle. I can drip feed to it for larger programs. Decent work envelope. Only thing is its only 8000rpm and 7.5hp. But for prototyping do you really need 10k spindle. The Robodrill will outlast a HAAS. Its small 5' wide but has a nice envelope. 19.68"x14.96"x11.81" 1,400ipm rapids on x and y and 1,181 on the Z. 1 second tool changes.

I looked at Tormach. Ok machine but $20k for it with tool changer. Slow rapids. Slow tool changes. Small HP. Lousy service. I tried to buy one originally. For weeks no one would return my emails or phone calls other than to tell me to send money. Never would answer my questions. I am so glad they did that because I have a much better machine for less money.

Don't forget tool holders, vises etc. You can spend another $5k to $10k easy.

Donny
 
BANG for the BUCK, its hard to beat..

In the VMC realm.. Fadals are

1)SIMPLE
2)CHEAP
... A) to fix
... B) to buy
3) SUPPORT
... A) Owners, there are a ton of us.
... B) Suppliers, there are quite a few places that supply Fadal parts AND SUPPORT...




7587539652_7ac4e49779_c.jpg

I'm really worried about the blue chips warming the beer.


I would agree, the Fadal route is a solid choice for your needs and budget. A friend has two usually running 10-15 hour cycles unattended, and a third in some sort of major repair (table was off last I saw) that he says is a simple fix. Like Bob says, easy and cheap to repair. My buddy's are probably making bank while he is off scouting elk this weekend, paying for his trip. Certainly not the fastest-mostest-bestest of what's out there, but they make parts just fine.

Steve
 
oh yeah, i remember that picture.
(there is a Haas right next to that machine from whence the chip were shoveled into the Fadal for the photo op)
:D:D

Yeah, they needed to get the chips out of that Haas because it needed a new spindle after making that many chips. :D
 
(there is a Haas right next to that machine from whence the chip were shoveled into the Fadal for the photo op)

Tormach actually.. 3 of 'em to be precise.. They are a bitch to hold onto while turning them to chips.


I'm more worried about the fact he lets Bud Light through his door. ;-)

Other things are allowed through the door also..
14294144268_ebb4b04840_c.jpg


Beer bottle(full for a change) used for scale.. Biggest storm I've ever seen out here, stranded me at the shop for 36 hours.. There are only 4 sanders in the county and its almost as big as Connecticut. Some fancy stuff, it was pretty good, and it actually had the name SNOW in it.

6578179111_fb59b145f3_z.jpg


And it wasn't always Bud Light, I used to drink the red cans, but the red cans get real funky tasting in the summer..

My back porch.
5286034899_5edd9c91c1_z.jpg


A visitor.
2789196642_2b1446813d_z.jpg


And of course, at times, there are other types of canned or bottled beverages in the shop.

5331335377_98da6b4ef2_b.jpg




And I still say Fadal's are the best Bang For The Buck.. If you run out of capacity, add another one..
I'm not saying they are the be all and end all and solve every problem.. But they are a solution to a lot
of problems, and they are a cheap fix to a lot of those problems.. I don't intend on running solely Fadals
forever, but they are a good starting (re-starting) point.
 








 
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