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Best Right Angle Head for everyday use

CutEdge

Aluminum
Joined
May 22, 2015
For people who use right angle heads on their VMC all day every day, what's your favorite brand of right-angle head?

I'm not talking about the occasional part where you switch the head in when you need it. We're looking for a quiet tool, long life, and consistent performance at 5000-6000 rpm, running night and day, 20 hours a day, semi-lights-out (just somebody to stop the machine if there's a problem). We have one right now we've been using for the past 3 years (though not at full capacity), and it's time for a rebuild. I'm pretty sure the bearings are shot. When we ramp up capacity, I'd rather not have to rebuild these every year if such a thing is possible.

The main problem I've had so far is noise. I'm not talking about a rattling noise or a "something wrong" noise; I just mean the tool is loud... it ran that way for 3 years and we made good parts. Nevertheless, it probably does shorten the life of the tool.

Some other considerations besides brand: Can I reduce the noise by getting a flange-mount head instead of a removable head with stop block? We don't need the tool change option, and I think it may add some rigidity to mount the head permanently. Also, I'm considering switching to an ER11 instead of an ER25 size. This would have a capacity of 10,000rpm instead of 6,000rpm. We don't need the 10,000rpm, but maybe it will help if I'm not maxing out the tool all the time. Will a higher-speed-rated tool run quieter than a lower-speed-rated tool, at the same 6k rpm speed?

Thanks for any help!
 
$30k VMC vs $190k HMC

The HMC's seem to have way too many features and are way bigger than what we need.

Do you know of another company besides Haas that has a small HMC comparable to the Haas TM-1 VMC?
 
The 400 is the only H that they list in 40 taper?
Have they REALLY pared their offerings back?

They ust'a make a horizontal that looked just like a VF series mill, but it had a horizontal spindle in it.
Price was good, but resale would be poor I would think.
These are NOT pallet machines.
But it should work for you super!

I don't know the model, but if you could find one on the used market, it would likely work great for you!
Although I don't know if it has a B axis?
Would you have need for the ability to rotate the part?

Otherwise, you could likely doo just fine with one of their early model HMC's.
Can't think of the model name, but they are out there, and cheap.
They don't have the best rep for being solid, but for what you are apparently dooing, they should be just the ticket.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Another reply regarding horizontals, which isn't what you asked about so I apologize. We only have 1 right angle head for a cnc machine, and it is an old kennemetal 50 taper we might run once every couple years, and we run it at low rpms even then.


If you're looking for a small horizontal, Kitamura makes nice little guys. Not sure the footprint on them, but they have H250 (30 taper) and H300 (40 taper) machines (advertized new as HX250iG/HX300iG - note: I am NOT suggesting a new horizontal, unless you see it make sense for you). There's a 2005 hx250 on ebay for about 50 grand, and an hx300 for 28 (that one needs work)

Am running a 1998 h400 with 100 tools and love it.


Sorry I can't answer to your actual question. I get that you might not be able to drop another machine on the floor and 6 grand is certainly a lot cheaper than 50+. But damn, horizontals are great for stuff like I assume you are doing.

Of course, I don't know what you're doing and if you're using the right angle head to get at features inside a box, bore, etc, that normal conventional tooling couldn't get to, this wouldn't help you. But getting to 3 sides of a part makes my life a lot easier.
 
A horizontal would probably work fine; it just depends on the layout, because we have to feed the material through the windows. I would need one that has readily available CAD models because we have to modify the machine to do what we want, adding brackets and clamps inside.

I would greatly prefer a new one: We rely on being able to install sensors and to use data collection constantly. We need modern Haas Macro B programming, or something with the same functionality. Though I dread having to reprogram everything for a non-Haas style, I suppose it could be done.

All that sounds complicated though, whereas the angled head is already working and I just want it to work better.
 
I'd recommend taking a look at Big Daishowa. I have one of their spindle speeders (not a right angle head) that is rock solid, from the late 90's, that has yet to require a rebuild. Their stuff is expensive but top notch.
 
Have you measured the decibels at 6000rpm, by chance? Noise is a factor. Though yours is a speeder and not an angle, the sound may give a hint as to how well their gears are designed.
 
The main problem I've had so far is noise. I'm not talking about a rattling noise or a "something wrong" noise; I just mean the tool is loud... it ran that way for 3 years and we made good parts. Nevertheless, it probably does shorten the life of the tool.

What brand are you using now?
 
Have you considered buying a custom tombstone/right-angle fixture for your machine?

It seems to me that your problem isn't the spindle being the wrong orientation, it's the table.

A custom fixture is cheaper than an HMC and more versatile than a RAH.

You're trying to find a unicorn if you want a RAH that doesn't require regular maintenance and is quiet.

The principles that make up a RAH are not compatible with your wants.

To make them compact, they have to put small gears in them, to handle torque with small gears, you have to cut them so they are noisy. Quiet gears are not as strong as noisy gears for the same size.

The gears produce lots of axial and radial loads, but they use small bearings to make them compact, so the bearings are not going to have the life of a normal spindle bearing.

Heat is another issue, most spindles have chillers and RAH units do not, so they get hotter and have thermal constraints.

Most shops look to a 4th axis instead of a RAH, a 4th is more versatile, since you can get at 4 sides of a part. I'd wager that a good RAH is a significant percentage of the cost of a 4th. With good workholding and fixture design, you can make a 4th rigid enough, but if your parts are big, look to get a custom right-angle fixture.
 
I haven't heard this before, can you explain further?

As the helix angle goes from zero (straight cut) to high helix, the gears become quieter and the actual gear contact patch is reduced.

The higher the helix, the weaker the gear is, effectively.

So, quiet gears are weaker than noisy gears; a high helix gear is weaker than a straight cut gear, for gears of the same size.
 
"M22 Rock Crusher"



Edge:

It sure sounds to me like you are getting excellent life out of your current unit!



----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Have you measured the decibels at 6000rpm, by chance? Noise is a factor. Though yours is a speeder and not an angle, the sound may give a hint as to how well their gears are designed.

I haven't. The speeder (5:1) is certainly louder than the Hermle's spindle but not crazy, even at 20k RPM. The build quality is excellent with this thing.
 
CutEdge - you say you don't need the tool change capability - so basically you have a TM1 or the like that machines the sides of some long workpiece - making pockets in the sides of an extrusion, or drilling holes in the web of an I-beam, or some such? Are using spindle orientation to point the thing?

1. Are you *milling* with the RAH, or just drilling?

2. Since you say you don't need tool change, I wonder why you need your workhead to be powered by the spindle at all? Why not make some bracket (could be held by the spindle - why give up the clamping power of 40-taper) - which holds an indepedent head. Could be a drill or mill head, electric or air powered. Sort of thing used in "hard automation" in some factories.
 
I'll try to respond to several posts at once. We are using an Alberti ER25 model. Glad to hear I'm getting decent life out of it... at least I'm not experiencing anything uncommon. I can't reposition the part for various reasons, some of which are proprietary. If I could get Haas to tip the spindle at 30-degree angle from vertical, I could reposition the part and make it work, but somehow I think that would be more expensive than an angled head. Plus, all the workholding is already designed and built for the horizontal orientation.

Perry Harrington, the gearing theory sounds interesting to me. So, if high-helix means quieter, weaker gears, then could I get a weaker angled head with a higher RPM rating (I don't necessarily need strength so much)? Say, an ER32 instead of an ER25 unit... do they typically make the smaller/faster models with high-helix gears?

bryan_machine, an independent tool head... now there's an idea. Do you know of a good source for one? It would have to attach to the spindle. Maybe I could even, like you said, use the spindle and I could even then use the M19 command to add another axis to my tool head.
 
bryan_machine, an independent tool head... now there's an idea. Do you know of a good source for one? It would have to attach to the spindle. Maybe I could even, like you said, use the spindle and I could even then use the M19 command to add another axis to my tool head.


I agree that is one of the best options in this thread IMO.

No - I don't know of an off-the-shelf tool, but ....




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Doris Day - Gone @ "Older than Dirt"
Ox
 
CutEdge - the spindles I know of personally (as in I've handled them, made brackets for them) are things like cheap asian spindles used in hobby machines, or, I know of one project where a Tormach spindle is being used in a serious educational CNC project. (These aren't my machines.)

More below, but googling "machine tool spindles for custom machines" brings up a number of credible looking web pages. Also iBag and setco seem like people worth calling just off the top of my head.

You didn't answer whether you are just drilling (drilling, taping, etc.) - a cheaper class of head; or are you also doing some milling?

This distinction is very important. Because it affects whether you could use, for example, an IBAG small high speed spindle, or you need something larger.

While I've often thought about this, in the end I bought a 5-axis machine instead and never actually implemented any of this - so I have no comment on whether brand-X leaks grease or brand-Y sounds like a banshee from hell.

But fundamentally, the right-angle part of a right-angle head has a burden (cost) associated with it, that it sure sounds like you don' t need.

[There ARE 5-axis machines with A-axis (and more) heads (NOT a trunnion table) where you could run your part in it, machine it, move it on. All of those that I know about are very large very costly machines. Think Zimmermann and the like.]
 








 
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