Big+ CAT40 vs BT40 on a new machine (in the USA) - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Also the flange is much thicker on a BT40 than CAT40. For CAT40 the shortest ER32 collet chuck I make is 1.85", in BT40 the shortest is @1/2" longer. So in some cases BT40 holders will need a longer gage length than CAT40.

    CAT40 ER32 1.85 COLLET CHUCK TOOL HOLDER - Made in USA MariTool


    The shortest BT40 ER32 collet chuck I make is 60mm (2.36")

    BT40 ER32 Collet Chuck Tool Holder 60mm Gage Length - Made in USA MariTool

    Don't get me started on the "zero" gage length collet chucks where the collet taper is actually inside the tool holder taper. Big no no. tightening the collet inside expands the outside taper. Over time will ruin your spindle taper.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    ^^^By far my favorite medium sized interface.

    But FWIW HSK63 is definitely less rigid than dual contact 40 taper at lower RPMS. A dual contact 40 is pretty good for middle of the road. The rotating mass is small enough that you can get some really fast spindles, but it's stout enough that the spindle interface is more robust than the machine for most 40x20 applications.
    interesting take on DC 40s vs HSK. Most of my experience is on cat40 haas where 'half' of the taper is sticking out of the spindle, so i have a weak basis for any rigidity discussions. Learning form other on this point.
    Been working with a premium Mikron spindles recently with only HSK options. HSK32 thru HSK100 with 50k Rpm thru 15K/60Hp ,respectively.
    Be interesting to go head to head on identical 3 axis mills.

    Seem like CAT40 itty bitty pull studs are a big weak link. Those letting go during a crash is where the tool gets pulled out and you destroy the taper. Don't see that happening with a HSK63

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkd View Post
    interesting take on DC 40s vs HSK. Most of my experience is on cat40 haas where 'half' of the taper is sticking out of the spindle, so i have a weak basis for any rigidity discussions. Learning form other on this point.
    Been working with a premium Mikron spindles recently with only HSK options. HSK32 thru HSK100 with 50k Rpm thru 15K/60Hp ,respectively.
    Be interesting to go head to head on identical 3 axis mills.

    Seem like CAT40 itty bitty pull studs are a big weak link. Those letting go during a crash is where the tool gets pulled out and you destroy the taper. Don't see that happening with a HSK63
    My understanding is that in theory HSK is supposed to shear off at the interface to reduce the risk of damage inside the taper. I've seen HSK63 spindles get trashed from side-loading in a crash through.

    I've actually never seen a pull stud break and damage the spindle on a dual contact CAT40 or BT40, and I've seen some epic crashes. I think that's more of an issue when the tool is only making taper contact, because it is more likely to pry itself out when side loaded.

    I think both Sandvik and Big Kaiser did extensive studies showing the rigidity differences between dual contact 40 vs HSK (Sandvik of course showing that Capto is the best of all). The steep taper is significantly more stout at lower RPMS. However, the 40 taper becomes less rigid at higher RPMS, but the HSK sucks in and becomes more rigid at higher RPMS, SO there is a crossover where HSK becomes stronger, but IIRC it is around 20k.

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  6. #24
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    The nice thing about HSK is their is no pull stud to worry about. 4 Different pull studs for CAT40 in my shop... Doosan, Mori Seiki, Makino and then Methods (Litz-Hitech)

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    My understanding is that in theory HSK is supposed to shear off at the interface to reduce the risk of damage inside the taper. I've seen HSK63 spindles get trashed from side-loading in a crash through.

    I've actually never seen a pull stud break and damage the spindle on a dual contact CAT40 or BT40, and I've seen some epic crashes. I think that's more of an issue when the tool is only making taper contact, because it is more likely to pry itself out when side loaded.

    I think both Sandvik and Big Kaiser did extensive studies showing the rigidity differences between dual contact 40 vs HSK (Sandvik of course showing that Capto is the best of all). The steep taper is significantly more stout at lower RPMS. However, the 40 taper becomes less rigid at higher RPMS, but the HSK sucks in and becomes more rigid at higher RPMS, SO there is a crossover where HSK becomes stronger, but IIRC it is around 20k.
    I think the bigger Capto are signicantly more rigid with the tri-lob/ellipse shape coupled with dual contact. Can't find it, but I believe you ^ are right about the graphs/studies. Tradeoffs for all I think, cat40/50 being probably the cheapest of them. Also with HSK, don't need a pullstud, but you do need a coolant tube if you have TSC.

    Coolant tube - HAIMER

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    No perfect interface exists. Capto has issues as well. As far as I know the nitrogen drawbar for clamping is still only available from Sandvik, cost @8k for a C6 unit. they do not last forever, I am on my 3rd. Tool changer arm alignment is a little pickier than Steep taper or HSK. Spindle is hard to grind and thus costly. Holders are hard to grind compared to all others.

    Im my experience a Capto C6 has the rigidity of a CAT45, very close to a CAT50. It is more rigid than CAT40 dual contact.

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    Maybe some one can clarify. On the mazak smooth controls, the spindle/machine did not like taking a tool out manually. Screwed it all up

  12. #28
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    IMHO the biggest problem with CAPTO is Sandvik. Their pricing is absurd. They shouldn't have to discount 50% just to be competitive. It means that when us little guys need to buy half a dozen holders at list we get screwed.

    No that they care what I think. They are too busy raking in money from the big corporate accounts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Spindle is hard to grind and thus costly. Holders are hard to grind compared to all others.

    Im my experience a Capto C6 has the rigidity of a CAT45, very close to a CAT50. It is more rigid than CAT40 dual contact.
    Do Capto and HSK spindles get reground in the field?

    Do you, or would you, make Cat 45 tools? I dearly love mine, but new tools and specials are hard to come by.

  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mud View Post
    Do Capto and HSK spindles get reground in the field?

    Do you, or would you, make Cat 45 tools? I dearly love mine, but new tools and specials are hard to come by.
    I am not sure if you can regrind HSK in the field. But I think yes. Just remove internal clamping unit and grind or hardturn and then you must do the face to match.

    Capto for sure no, Cannot be done on the field. I think pretty much all the time the just replace the spindle with a new one. Even the larger spindle rebuild shops do not have internal CNC grinders with a full C-axis workhead spindle.

    Sorry, no CAT45 in the future. Just not enough demand to justify.

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    Just for giggles I think I got everybody beat on oddball tool holders. Be axis mill turn with BT40 lathe stick tools and anti-rotation pin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkd View Post
    Just for giggles I think I got everybody beat on oddball tool holders. Be axis mill turn with BT40 lathe stick tools and anti-rotation pin.
    Ouch!! No thank you.

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    Just to circle back, I think we're going to go with CAT40 dual contact. My heart says to go with BT40 for access to some cool Japanese stuff, but my brain says I'd be making things harder (and possibly more expensive) on myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkd View Post
    Just for giggles I think I got everybody beat on oddball tool holders. Be axis mill turn with BT40 lathe stick tools and anti-rotation pin.
    I'll raise you some Utilis HSK-40E lathe tooling with Willemin specific rotation blocks.

    utilis-408-tooling.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by TKassoc View Post
    I'll raise you some Utilis HSK-40E lathe tooling with Willemin specific rotation blocks.

    utilis-408-tooling.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by mutiny View Post
    Just to circle back, I think we're going to go with CAT40 dual contact. My heart says to go with BT40 for access to some cool Japanese stuff, but my brain says I'd be making things harder (and possibly more expensive) on myself.
    Weither you use us or any quality tool holders manufacturer I think you made a great choice.

    But as a side note, we have a lot of exciting new tool holders in the works for 2021. All high quality, competitively priced and in Dual Contact format.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    IMHO the biggest problem with CAPTO is Sandvik. Their pricing is absurd. They shouldn't have to discount 50% just to be competitive. It means that when us little guys need to buy half a dozen holders at list we get screwed.

    No that they care what I think. They are too busy raking in money from the big corporate accounts.
    Sandvik are not the only place to buy capto holders. Sandvik dropped their exclusive rights to it in 2008, and it became PSK taper (ISO 26623)

    They do have by far the largest range of integrated capto tools. I went with Tungaloy for the C6 package on our last new machine, and Sandvik just for specific tools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Weither you use us or any quality tool holders manufacturer I think you made a great choice.

    But as a side note, we have a lot of exciting new tool holders in the works for 2021. All high quality, competitively priced and in Dual Contact format.
    Excited to see what y'all launch!


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