BIG-PLUS Dual Contact Vs. Non-Licensed Dual Contact
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    Default BIG-PLUS Dual Contact Vs. Non-Licensed Dual Contact

    This video showed up today YouTube,
    They had to test at least 25 holders and only 4 made contact, is this just a marketing video with import cheap holders or there is something to it?

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    Interesting. Some of this could be marketing. But the Big Plus tolerances are so tight, understandably, that it is hard to replicate. Big Daishawa does not divulge those tolerances to anybody except Big Kaiser and a few other licensed manufactures. I work for Doosan, all of our machines are Big Plus standard.

    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    Interesting. Some of this could be marketing. But the Big Plus tolerances are so tight, understandably, that it is hard to replicate. Big Daishawa does not divulge those tolerances to anybody except Big Kaiser and a few other licensed manufactures. I work for Doosan, all of our machines are Big Plus standard.

    Paul
    Does Doosan void the warranty if you use stanard V-flange holders? I have heard some MTB's are notorious for that........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmaks View Post
    This video showed up today YouTube,
    They had to test at least 25 holders and only 4 made contact, is this just a marketing video with import cheap holders or there is something to it?
    Well since they charge you your first born for a Big Plus holder, there are lots of companies making dual contact holders for way less. This is a propaganda video because they aren't making any money. IMO.

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    Hahaha,
    I love it. Anyone that knows how to grind tapers or check for fit will know that is way too much prussian blue. You never apply that much. Ya I am one of those Un-Licensed manufacturers. We reached out to them in 2013 for pricing and information on getting a license. They replied they would not entertain or sell us a license. I asked for a reason, they would not give one. Very nice how they flat out will not sell you a license and then make a video telling you to watch out for unlicensed manufacturers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    Interesting. Some of this could be marketing. But the Big Plus tolerances are so tight, understandably, that it is hard to replicate. Big Daishawa does not divulge those tolerances to anybody except Big Kaiser and a few other licensed manufactures. I work for Doosan, all of our machines are Big Plus standard.

    Paul

    I know the tolerances. If you are experienced in grinding those tolerances are not too tight. HSK is much tighter.

    Hard to replicate? Just the opposite. Dual contact is based on a relationship of a known and measurable taper gage line to a flat shoulder. Anyone that has a little experience with geometry, trig, and datum points can figure this out and create reliable and repeatable measuring fixtures and proper CMM measuring procedures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Hahaha,
    I love it. Anyone that knows how to grind tapers or check for fit will know that is way too much prussian blue.
    I thought the same thing when I watched it yesterday. They just gooped it on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipSplitter View Post
    Does Doosan void the warranty if you use stanard V-flange holders? I have heard some MTB's are notorious for that........

    No, Doosan does not void the warranty if you use standard holders. But we do insist the the standard holders you do use are new or in very good condition for obvious reasons. I was doing an install/training on a 5 axis machine and I asked them what holders they were going to use. He pointed to a large crate near the machine that had about 200 old crappy holders with fretting and rust just piled on top of one another. I told the manager that we would not support the spindle warranty if he used those and trashed the spindle or complained about tool vibration. You spend 250K on a brand new 5 axis and cheap out on holders?

    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    I know the tolerances. If you are experienced in grinding those tolerances are not too tight. HSK is much tighter.

    Hard to replicate? Just the opposite. Dual contact is based on a relationship of a known and measurable taper gage line to a flat shoulder. Anyone that has a little experience with geometry, trig, and datum points can figure this out and create reliable and repeatable measuring fixtures and proper CMM measuring procedures.

    I get what you are saying and I remember you speaking about it in another thread. But you put a lot of work into what you came up with. I'm not saying it can't be done. But some MTB's will not support machines using your holders. We have so far not voided any warranties for this except for maybe very extreme cases.

    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Ya I am one of those Un-Licensed manufacturers.
    The whole idea of "licensing" a dimension is stupid. I can't believe actual machinists would fall for that crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    No, Doosan does not void the warranty if you use standard holders. But we do insist the the standard holders you do use are new or in very good condition for obvious reasons. I was doing an install/training on a 5 axis machine and I asked them what holders they were going to use. He pointed to a large crate near the machine that had about 200 old crappy holders with fretting and rust just piled on top of one another. I told the manager that we would not support the spindle warranty if he used those and trashed the spindle or complained about tool vibration. You spend 250K on a brand new 5 axis and cheap out on holders?

    Paul
    Exactly. Only new quality holders or very good condition holders should be used on a new machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    The whole idea of "licensing" a dimension is stupid. I can't believe actual machinists would fall for that crap.
    "Tolerance" not a single dimension so much eh ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    The whole idea of "licensing" a dimension is stupid. I can't believe actual machinists would fall for that crap.
    I'm more worried that MTB's will fall for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmaks View Post
    I'm more worried that MTB's will fall for it.
    It would be a good idea to talk to the dealership while negotiating and comparing with other machine tool brands. Let them know it will be a part of your decision when determining which machine you would buy. Or buy the tool holders that you specify with the machine as a package.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Hahaha,
    Ya I am one of those Un-Licensed manufacturers. We reached out to them in 2013 for pricing and information on getting a license. They replied they would not entertain or sell us a license. I asked for a reason, they would not give one. Very nice how they flat out will not sell you a license and then make a video telling you to watch out for unlicensed manufacturers.
    Here is the reason: part of the licencing is a minimum price for the holders, so they stay competitive..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmaks View Post
    Here is the reason: part off the licencing is a minimum price for the holders, so they stay competitive..
    Exactly. Looks like I was not part of the "club".

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    I have been very satisfied with the performance (and value) of Maritool's Dual Contact holders. I use them when more rigidity is required such as large diameter tools (slitting saws), longer tools, PCD form tools, heavier cuts... I have noticed significant improvements in cut quality, sound and tool life etc the times I went with a standard holder first and then switched to a Dual Contact. The cuts and tool life don't lie. If the Dual Contact adapters don't improve your challenging operations, there is something wrong with them. If the dimensions aren't ground correctly, the taper will not seat properly and you will know it or the face will never make contact and there will be no improvement.

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    I bought a new Doosan DNM 5700 last March. I decided to only run new dual contact holder and ordered some from Maritool.

    Then a couple weeks later in walks a rep from Big Kaiser, He tells me he never heard of Maritool and to "be careful" because they aren't licensed and could cause problems!! So when he left I blued a half dozen or so of Franks holder and they all looked perfect.
    Almost 1 year later I have had no problems with the spindle or any holders!!!

    img_20190422_092706695.jpg

    Dale

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Exactly. Looks like I was not part of the "club".
    Make that "Club For Growth".....

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    "Tolerance" not a single dimension so much eh ?
    We're supposed to be machinists, double D's. If you can't hold that number to two tenths on a grinder, then get outta Dodge.


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