BIG-PLUS Dual Contact Vs. Non-Licensed Dual Contact - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    With so many large tooling manufacturers not being able to get a licence, could someone make a Dual-Contact standard and make it accessible to all? this way MTB can give an option for customers to use BIG-PLUS or Dual-Contect licenced tool holders

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    Yea but with Mari-Tool, you are only getting the tool holder. With the Big Kaiser tool holder you also get a sense of smug satisfaction.
    And twenty minutes bent over the barrel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jmaks View Post
    With so many large tooling manufacturers not being able to get a licence, could someone make a Dual-Contact standard and make it accessible to all? this way MTB can give an option for customers to use BIG-PLUS or Dual-Contect licenced tool holders
    Is CAT 50 "licensed" ? BT 40 ? K&T 2" straight-shank ? HSK ? R8 ? Why would anyone fall for that nonsense, anyhow ?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    And twenty minutes bent over the barrel


    Is CAT 50 "licensed" ? BT 40 ? K&T 2" straight-shank ? HSK ? R8 ? Why would anyone fall for that nonsense, anyhow ?

    Its an ISO standard, Doesn't the standard specify tolerances for the dimensions?

    (Note: We have a load of MariTool Dual Contact holders and very happy with them)

    iso.jpg

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    I have never bought any Big Kaiser toolholders for the simple reason that they are way too expensive. ETM (Iscar), Ingersoll, Techniks, Parlec, Dorian, Sowa, and even Schunk (sometimes ) are all less money.

    I have a lot of Techniks and Parlec and would like to try Frank's holders sometime, too.

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    Big Kaiser is not unlike a lot of companies in metalworking: they have a good product, and charge accordingly — what the market will bear.

    These companies take full advantage of the simple fact most people buying this stuff aren’t spending their own money, therefore they really don’t care how much it costs.

    Hundreds of manufacturing-tech makers depend on this simple concept.

    ToolCat

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  7. #46
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    I've always believed to just figure your costs, mark up a reasonable profit and the product should sell itself. We never had a salesman work for us. Never needed one, never wanted one. Build a good product at a fair price. Don't nickel and dime or gouge your customers!!!

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  9. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    Yea but with Mari-Tool, you are only getting the tool holder. With the Big Kaiser tool holder you also get a sense of smug satisfaction.
    It is true there is a lot of smugness and fair amount of "Satisfaction" for the $ and the standard they created ~ literally.

    What I'm trying to wrap my head around is "They" BK have master gauges that are sold with the license (traceable reference chips) that reference the Grand Master Gauge* held by Big Daishowa.

    Frank is saying the tolerances are not that high anyway (as compared to HSK) :::::: Does that imply the reference masters and the Grand Reference Master is / are completely redundant and pointless ?

    IS that true ?

    Is there or are there more subtle biases in the dual contact interface on the reference masters that is different from simpler geometric descriptions ?

    Are they "Selling" imaginary features and quality that is not there ? ~ I'm sympathetic to BK trying to at least maintain their standard but it's been quite a number of years since it was introduced. BUT at the same time they need to maintain the quality of their standards / the standard so it is not systematically degraded and becomes meaningless. BUT it is a bit dodgy that they choose not to sell licenses in certain cases. ~ In areas of High Tech one would be able to sue for withholding such information / anti-trust lawsuit. , but if it's a really simple geometric relationship then there's no point ?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________


    * In the old days you had reference masters tracible to a "Grand Master" 'cuz it was very difficult to hit abstract mathematical relationships super super accurately ~ But nowadays that's less of a problem …

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Hahaha,
    I love it. Anyone that knows how to grind tapers or check for fit will know that is way too much prussian blue. You never apply that much. Ya I am one of those Un-Licensed manufacturers. We reached out to them in 2013 for pricing and information on getting a license. They replied they would not entertain or sell us a license. I asked for a reason, they would not give one. Very nice how they flat out will not sell you a license and then make a video telling you to watch out for unlicensed manufacturers.
    I don't know much about bluing something and checking for fit/contact, but it was obvious to me they put more blue on the Big Kaiser flange than the 'copy' brand.

  11. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I don't know much about bluing something and checking for fit/contact, but it was obvious to me they put more blue on the Big Kaiser flange than the 'copy' brand.
    That's just so it shows up on the camera … For "Didactic purposes" it's not literally what they did in testing.

    It is funny though why didn't they use tomato ketchup instead ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    It is true there is a lot of smugness and fair amount of "Satisfaction" for the $ and the standard they created ~ literally.

    What I'm trying to wrap my head around is "They" BK have master gauges that are sold with the license (traceable reference chips) that reference the Grand Master Gauge* held by Big Daishowa.

    Frank is saying the tolerances are not that high anyway (as compared to HSK) :::::: Does that imply the reference masters and the Grand Reference Master is / are completely redundant and pointless ?

    IS that true ?

    Is there or are there more subtle biases in the dual contact interface on the reference masters that is different from simpler geometric descriptions ?

    Are they "Selling" imaginary features and quality that is not there ? ~ I'm sympathetic to BK trying to at least maintain their standard but it's been quite a number of years since it was introduced.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________


    * In the old days you had reference masters tracible to a "Grand Master" 'cuz it was very difficult to hit abstract mathematical relationships super super accurately ~ But nowadays that's less of a problem …
    Nothing wrong with having a grand master. Good for not having tolerance creep. When I say tolerance is not that tight please remeber I work in sub tenths every day. So it is all relative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Nothing wrong with having a grand master. Good for not having tolerance creep. When I say tolerance is not that tight please remeber I work in sub tenths every day. So it is all relative.
    I'm on the same page there, as we are trying to create our own standards (not tools/ tool holders ) but precision interfaces with high repeatability down to a couple of microns.

    I know the big Kaiser dual contact interface is not trivial , but wondered if any subtle features (to improve or guarantee enhanced performance) had crept into the design as well as implementation with various MTBs for spindle nose receptacles ~ I'm guessing not.

    Doesn't seem worth while to sue Big Kaiser to force them to "Allow" the sale of a license (anti-trust).

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I'm sympathetic to BK trying to at least maintain their standard but it's been quite a number of years since it was introduced.
    Didn't they have the original patent? And a patent only last for 20 years, and now other companies are able to make dual contact holders as of recent?

    That would explain the propaganda they spew about not trusting anything but Big Plus originals.

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  17. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    Didn't they have the original patent? And a patent only last for 20 years, and now other companies are able to make dual contact holders as of recent?

    That would explain the propaganda they spew about not trusting anything but Big Plus originals.
    Quite possibly.

    US Patent number 5352073A

    I believe originally filed in 1992

    Probably has expired (I don't know of any patents in this area that are allowed to run for 28 years ).

    US5352073A - Tool holder for a machine tool
    - Google Patents


    ^^^ PDF download is possible by clicking button on right side of web page. (Full description/ proper layout).

    Was originally filed / granted for territories ---> USA, Canada, Germany, U.K., France , Italy and South Korea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    US Patent number 5352073A
    This can go right up there with Steve Jobs' black rectangle ... but it's expired anyhow, has been for 8 years. It's a trademark and nothing more.

    Mari could have saved himself some work by getting the dimensions off the patent

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    <snip>

    Mari could have saved himself some work by getting the dimensions off the patent
    That's insane - You'd never build a tool holder to sell from that patent description.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    That's insane - You'd never build a tool holder to sell from that patent description.
    You're right. I thought those were dimensions on the drawings. Blew them up big enough to read and they are just reference numbers.

    What a crock. The whole US Patent Office should be disbanded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    You're right. I thought those were dimensions on the drawings. Blew them up big enough to read and they are just reference numbers.

    What a crock. The whole US Patent Office should be disbanded.
    And you should go fuck yourself.

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  23. #58
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    It is at best a band-aid design for dual contact compared to HSK or others.
    The numbers are trade secrets, the license, masters and gauges when available was insane money.
    With years of use even the official parts no longer contact on both surfaces.
    This is marketing and a locked in customer base which they have done well.
    The video shows how some are not right. The same is true for some places around the world making HSK for which there is no license but still very expensive to get into on gauges and masters.
    Since it's introduction I have always thought it a scam. Is your machine floor a semi-conductor fab clean room?
    What do you clean your holder and spindle taper with, lint from a rag or paper towel becomes a problem here.

    Easy enough to copy, just buy 100 or the real thing and measure them all. Draw your own print to the middle and hold half the spread you found.
    How to measure is very tricky. Kiss big dollar micrometers, surface plates with 10,000 dollar height gauges, 1/4 million dollar CMMs and the best 100X optical comparators made goodbye here.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    And you should go fuck yourself.
    LockNut liked this post ....

    You guys don't like being wrong, do you

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    And you should go fuck yourself.
    That is not nice and not understanding the basic rules of the game.
    Bob


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