BIG-PLUS Dual Contact Vs. Non-Licensed Dual Contact - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    The people who do know about excellent companies like MariTool are the people like us, who take our trade serious — and are interested enough in it, to spend some time here on the internet learning and sharing knowledge.

    The blokes in our industry who haven’t heard of such fine companies aren’t spending their internet time advancing their industry knowledge and careers...

    ToolCat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Umm - no. You're underestimating the stiffness of the spindle material, as among other things if it was as flexible as you suggest then either the nose spindle bearings would be crushed during high speed operation or the assembly would be so floppy that surface finish would be crap..
    Quote from post of Frank Mari, who, I believe, is recognized expert in this field (Dual contact spindles, really that big of a deal?), post #5:

    "As a manufacturer of dual contact tool holders I will address your concern of manufacturing tolerances and taper wear. Dual contact interface relies on ELASTIC DEFORMATION of the spindle." And that's obvious. There is no way to satisfy tight tolerances demand of dimensions of both the spindle cone and face and the tool holder cone and flange (too many variables).Certain amount of "play" must be left.
    By the way all spindle cone walls are flexible, the cone widens when spindle rotation speed goes up. One should now elaborate, what are the consequences of this phenomena when using double contact holders versus "ordinary" holders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROBE View Post
    Quote from post of Frank Mari, who, I believe, is recognized expert in this field (Dual contact spindles, really that big of a deal?), post #5:

    "As a manufacturer of dual contact tool holders I will address your concern of manufacturing tolerances and taper wear. Dual contact interface relies on ELASTIC DEFORMATION of the spindle." And that's obvious. There is no way to satisfy tight tolerances demand of dimensions of both the spindle cone and face and the tool holder cone and flange (too many variables).Certain amount of "play" must be left.
    By the way all spindle cone walls are flexible, the cone widens when spindle rotation speed goes up. One should now elaborate, what are the consequences of this phenomena when using double contact holders versus "ordinary" holders.
    Yes? And just what are the relative tolerances when dealing with the elastic deformation? Is it thousandths, 50 microns? Or is it tenths, single-digit microns?

    It's tenths and low microns. And the need to control the values is real, and not "BS" as some claim. Or are spindles made from plastics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Yes? And just what are the relative tolerances when dealing with the elastic deformation? Is it thousandths, 50 microns? Or is it tenths, single-digit microns?

    It's tenths and low microns. And the need to control the values is real, and not "BS" as some claim. Or are spindles made from plastics?
    this x 10000

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Yes? And just what are the relative tolerances when dealing with the elastic deformation? Is it thousandths, 50 microns? Or is it tenths, single-digit microns?

    It's tenths and low microns. And the need to control the values is real, and not "BS" as some claim. Or are spindles made from plastics?
    This was quite sarcastic post. But let's skip this state of mind stuff and rather stick to technology.
    In same already mentioned post Frank Mari wrote: "You should have .0002-.0006 gap." Tolerance of 10 microns. As I spent my entire life chasing the microns for my employers and customers, this by far is not "tight tolerance" for any tool producer. Therefore if one (BIG in this case) claims, that other producer's product are lesser because he only is able to keep this "tight tolerance", it is BS.

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    I am the engineering manager at BIG KAISER Precision Tooling in the US. I can confirm that we purchased pairs of tool holders from a dozen different major international tool holder manufacturers that claim to be compatible with BIG-PLUS spindles. Of the four tools that were within the BIG-PLUS tolerance, none of them were from the same manufacturer (one holder was within but the other holder was not).

    While I agree that the BIG-PLUS design is a simple concept, the actual production and quality control over every single holder is quite difficult. It isn't only the location of the flange face but also taper tolerance and surface finish requirements that must be held on every tool holder produced. The tolerances are setup to make sure that any BIG-PLUS holder makes face contact in every BIG-PLUS spindle. This is why many machine tool builders specify that all dual contact holders must be licensed. This assures them that every holder is made using gauges that are traced back to the same gauges they use to grind the spindles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amiller View Post
    I am the engineering manager at BIG KAISER Precision Tooling in the US. I can confirm that we purchased pairs of tool holders from a dozen different major international tool holder manufacturers that claim to be compatible with BIG-PLUS spindles. Of the four tools that were within the BIG-PLUS tolerance, none of them were from the same manufacturer (one holder was within but the other holder was not).

    While I agree that the BIG-PLUS design is a simple concept, the actual production and quality control over every single holder is quite difficult. It isn't only the location of the flange face but also taper tolerance and surface finish requirements that must be held on every tool holder produced. The tolerances are setup to make sure that any BIG-PLUS holder makes face contact in every BIG-PLUS spindle. This is why many machine tool builders specify that all dual contact holders must be licensed. This assures them that every holder is made using gauges that are traced back to the same gauges they use to grind the spindles.
    got my popcorn ready...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROBE View Post
    ...
    In same already mentioned post Frank Mari wrote: "You should have .0002-.0006 gap." Tolerance of 10 microns. As I spent my entire life chasing the microns for my employers and customers, this by far is not "tight tolerance" for any tool producer.....
    Do the math in taper size change or angle error to hold this gap even if you can side wheel the flange perfect every time.
    Micron in tolerance is so way different than micron on the end length of a taper seat. What, a factor of six to ten so if you are chasing single digit microns at your work you are dead already.
    How about roundness error?
    I call this difficult to control.
    Have you made HSK or the others?
    Controlling a 1/2 square piece of carbide, a piston groove or even a cylinder bore to a few microns is one thing. This is a very different world.
    Due to it's design this is a very, very, fussy part and not much time to get it done from that long piece of stock on the receiving dock to packed.
    Do not underestimate tapers and seats if you have not tried.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by amiller View Post
    This is why many machine tool builders specify that all dual contact holders must be licensed. This assures them that every holder is made using gauges that are traced back to the same gauges they use to grind the spindles.
    First off, that is not legal.

    Second, it makes no difference for warranty purposes if parts do not match your tolerances, it's not going to hurt the spindle. Maybe a grossly wrong taper would, but that can happen with CAT or BT or NMTB or R8 or 5C, too. The part that makes it dual contact does not matter. If the face does not hit you'll just get the standard taper fit, if the taper does not hit you'll just get runout. Neither one is going to hurt the spindle.

    So .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    First off, that is not legal.

    Second, it makes no difference for warranty purposes if parts do not match your tolerances, it's not going to hurt the spindle. Maybe a grossly wrong taper would, but that can happen with CAT or BT or NMTB or R8 or 5C, too. The part that makes it dual contact does not matter. If the face does not hit you'll just get the standard taper fit, if the taper does not hit you'll just get runout. Neither one is going to hurt the spindle.

    So .....
    i'm sure you know the law better than a multi million dollar company with probably dozens of lawyers on retainer that do this kinda shit every day...


    wait, did you think about this? if its only contacting on the face, and not the taper, the runout CAN cause damage to the spindle taper!

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    i'm sure you know the law better than a multi million dollar company with probably dozens of lawyers on retainer that do this kinda shit every day...
    Do you know any lawyers ? They don't give a shit about law. They know they can say whatever they want until someone with standing spends big money to drag them to heel. They can do whatever the fuck they want because they know the system..

    It *is* illegal. Look it up. I posted the statute earlier. United States Code 2302(c)

    About damage, if the taper were loose you could get fretting on the face, which would obviously be a non-warrantied userland problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amiller View Post
    I am the engineering manager at BIG KAISER Precision Tooling in the US. I can confirm that we purchased pairs of tool holders from a dozen different major international tool holder manufacturers that claim to be compatible with BIG-PLUS spindles. Of the four tools that were within the BIG-PLUS tolerance, none of them were from the same manufacturer (one holder was within but the other holder was not).

    While I agree that the BIG-PLUS design is a simple concept, the actual production and quality control over every single holder is quite difficult. It isn't only the location of the flange face but also taper tolerance and surface finish requirements that must be held on every tool holder produced. The tolerances are setup to make sure that any BIG-PLUS holder makes face contact in every BIG-PLUS spindle. This is why many machine tool builders specify that all dual contact holders must be licensed. This assures them that every holder is made using gauges that are traced back to the same gauges they use to grind the spindles.
    Thanks for chiming in with this …


    Quote Originally Posted by amiller View Post
    This is why many machine tool builders specify that all dual contact holders must be licensed. This assures them that every holder is made using gauges that are traced back to the same gauges they use to grind the spindles.
    ^^^ This was very much at the back of my mind as the tool holder is only half the story and was wondering how well the MTBs were managing the other half of that "Connection" ?

    Really interesting point that the holders and the tool receptacles reference the same master …? ~ Dumb question here - one is male (master for the tool receptacle) and the other is female (master for the tool holder) ? So do you have two grand masters and then mate them or are there interferometric techniques and other methods to prove out / document your masters to 100 to 50 nm ?

    Also was wondering if there are / were more idiosyncratic and subtle tweaks that have been made over the years... Things that have crept into the design that would not be super obvious to "reverse engineer' (Perhaps ?). Hence the need to track which vintage of master (using the chips thing) that reference a particular "Grand Master " of a certain vintage / period ? Or has not much changed in the past 17 years or so ? The interface is pretty much locked down 100% unchanging for the foreseeable future ?

    Touching a little bit on what PROBE mentioned and others the tool receptacle under different draw bar forces and rpms (lets say up to 15k rpm) where really subtle non-linear distortions start to "take shape" as it were. (So called mushrooming / bell mouthing can't be completely trivial to compensate for that ? ).

    Also wonder about slight variances at 20K rpm++ (for 40 taper) for dual contact interface ? I think DMG Mori have spindles in excess of 20K rpm (spindles) for Dual contact 40 taper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amiller View Post
    I am the engineering manager at BIG KAISER Precision Tooling in the US. I can confirm that we purchased pairs of tool holders from a dozen different major international tool holder manufacturers that claim to be compatible with BIG-PLUS spindles. Of the four tools that were within the BIG-PLUS tolerance, none of them were from the same manufacturer (one holder was within but the other holder was not).

    While I agree that the BIG-PLUS design is a simple concept, the actual production and quality control over every single holder is quite difficult. It isn't only the location of the flange face but also taper tolerance and surface finish requirements that must be held on every tool holder produced. The tolerances are setup to make sure that any BIG-PLUS holder makes face contact in every BIG-PLUS spindle. This is why many machine tool builders specify that all dual contact holders must be licensed. This assures them that every holder is made using gauges that are traced back to the same gauges they use to grind the spindles.
    2nd dumb question...

    Frank has been getting super jiggy with an increasing number of top drawer Studer (NEW) grinders (on his floor) ~ for a smaller yet super competent manufacturer in the "Tools space" do you happen to know what's generally involved with getting a license ? [Assuming that's worth it for someone to pursue ?].

    I imagine there are a number of hoops to jump through for that ?

    Not suggesting that would be Frank's want or will; but just curious how that goes when someone approaches you guys / BK / BD for a license ? What do you guys look for other than hard cash + other intangible issues ?

    Please and thankyou.

    [I appreciate that may or may not be your purview / department ~ licensing strategy .].

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Thanks for chiming in with this …




    ^^^ This was very much at the back of my mind as the tool holder is only half the story and was wondering how well the MTBs were managing the other half of that "Connection" ?

    Really interesting point that the holders and the tool receptacles reference the same master …? ~ Dumb question here - one is male (master for the tool receptacle) and the other is female (master for the tool holder) ? So do you have two grand masters and then mate them or are there interferometric techniques and other methods to prove out / document your masters to 100 to 50 nm ?

    Also was wondering if there are / were more idiosyncratic and subtle tweaks that have been made over the years... Things that have crept into the design that would not be super obvious to "reverse engineer' (Perhaps ?). Hence the need to track which vintage of master (using the chips thing) that reference a particular "Grand Master " of a certain vintage / period ? Or has not much changed in the past 17 years or so ? The interface is pretty much locked down 100% unchanging for the foreseeable future ?

    Touching a little bit on what PROBE mentioned and others the tool receptacle under different draw bar forces and rpms (lets say up to 15k rpm) where really subtle non-linear distortions start to "take shape" as it were. (So called mushrooming / bell mouthing can't be completely trivial to compensate for that ? ).

    Also wonder about slight variances at 20K rpm++ (for 40 taper) for dual contact interface ? I think DMG Mori have spindles in excess of 20K rpm (spindles) for Dual contact 40 taper.
    something tells me you probably wont get the answers you're looking for... haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    something tells me you probably wont get the answers you're looking for... haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    bwahaha! drinks spilled...

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    Quote Originally Posted by amiller View Post
    I am the engineering manager at BIG KAISER Precision Tooling in the US. I can confirm that we purchased pairs of tool holders from a dozen different major international tool holder manufacturers that claim to be compatible with BIG-PLUS spindles. Of the four tools that were within the BIG-PLUS tolerance, none of them were from the same manufacturer (one holder was within but the other holder was not).

    While I agree that the BIG-PLUS design is a simple concept, the actual production and quality control over every single holder is quite difficult. It isn't only the location of the flange face but also taper tolerance and surface finish requirements that must be held on every tool holder produced. The tolerances are setup to make sure that any BIG-PLUS holder makes face contact in every BIG-PLUS spindle. This is why many machine tool builders specify that all dual contact holders must be licensed. This assures them that every holder is made using gauges that are traced back to the same gauges they use to grind the spindles.
    I'm a fan of your products. In the last 12 months, I've been the driver behind over $125,000 in Big Kaiser tooling purchases across multiple production lines. I deeply respect your work and I often hold up Big Kaiser tools as an absolute standard of quality and precision.

    But this campaign leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Numerous tooling vendors have stories of attempting to obtain BIG PLUS licenses, only to be turned away or quoted absurdly high fees that make their attempts fail to pencil out in the ROI. It seems self evident that the primary strategic aim of the license scheme is to put a moat around Big Kaiser's tooling sales, not to promote a strong ecosystem of compatible tooling with a wide variety of options (and prices) available. That might be in the best interest of Big Kaiser, but it absolutely works against the interest of customers with Big Plus spindles looking to maximize that investment's value.

    As it stands, an officially licensed Big Plus tool holder generally starts at $300. Perhaps that made sense (inflation adjusted) back when Big Plus was first invented, but not so great today as manufacturing tool value gets more competitive. Perhaps it is time to let the moat go and bring some of the great, innovative manufacturers into the fold who can greatly expand the Big Plus system and unlock some gains for customers. Starting with MariTool would be a great way to start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amiller View Post
    I am the engineering manager at BIG KAISER Precision Tooling in the US. I can confirm that we purchased pairs of tool holders from a dozen different major international tool holder manufacturers that claim to be compatible with BIG-PLUS spindles. Of the four tools that were within the BIG-PLUS tolerance, none of them were from the same manufacturer (one holder was within but the other holder was not).

    While I agree that the BIG-PLUS design is a simple concept, the actual production and quality control over every single holder is quite difficult. It isn't only the location of the flange face but also taper tolerance and surface finish requirements that must be held on every tool holder produced. The tolerances are setup to make sure that any BIG-PLUS holder makes face contact in every BIG-PLUS spindle. This is why many machine tool builders specify that all dual contact holders must be licensed. This assures them that every holder is made using gauges that are traced back to the same gauges they use to grind the spindles.
    When is Big Kaiser going to swallow their pride and realize the piles of money they are missing out on by charging WAY too much for their stuff?
    I and so many others been using NON-LICENSED dual contact holders for many years with zero issues.
    Just because some mfg's don't hold the tolerance that you claim to do doesn't mean they can't function the same. Besides, if could/do hold those tolerances you'd just move the goalposts and change them to something that only you know.

    So keep your shitty BP holders at 5x the price of Mari-Tool. I'll gladly give them more money for a product that functions virtually identical to yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    When is Big Kaiser going to swallow their pride and realize the piles of money they are missing out on by charging WAY too much for their stuff?
    I and so many others been using NON-LICENSED dual contact holders for many years with zero issues.
    Just because some mfg's don't hold the tolerance that you claim to do doesn't mean they can't function the same. Besides, if could/do hold those tolerances you'd just move the goalposts and change them to something that only you know.

    So keep your shitty BP holders at 5x the price of Mari-Tool. I'll gladly give them more money for a product that functions virtually identical to yours.
    Price does suck but man ...you have to get an authentic big Kaiser tool holder in your hands and see the quality difference.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Price does suck but man ...you have to get an authentic big Kaiser tool holder in your hands and see the quality difference.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    Earlier in the thread I said I couldn't find the original patent. Indeed there is a patent and it is expired.

    Generally the way the market works for these sorts of things is once the patent is expired everyone moves in to produce them. That's the whole point of the patent system .... you give a company exclusive market rights for a set number of years and then it's opened up for everyone. The opening up part is very important. We can't protect ideas in perpetuity - otherwise we will all end up as serfs.

    What Big Kaiser should do is file an ISO standard for Big Plus instead of trying to lengthen their patent through trademark and "licensing" nonsense.

    Then produce the most accurate and highest quality holders and market it as such. Make masters and sell them. I agree the Big Kaiser holders are of very high quality. The market always will have room for such products. But to trash talk competitors because they aren't "licensed?"

    At this point it's like trying to protect your product using unique thread forms and pitches because you are the only one with the measuring gear and original tolerances. Didn't Hardinge try that 100 years ago?

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